Trayvon Martin

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    undo
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    Trayvon Martin

    Post by undo on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:17 pm

    I wanted to have a go-to thread for this from the very start but with the jdff crash and the M@drox incident, it wasn't to be.

    Will George Zimmerman go free?

    How do you feel about it?
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:09 pm

    A cold blooded killer who murdered an unarmed kid deserves whatever awfulness he has coming to him, even if some backwards interpretation of some backwards law technically makes him "innocent." Fuck George Zimmerman. Even if he goes free, I hope Jasper's grandma was right in her "murdered by a gang of blacks" prediction.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by chrondog on Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:51 pm

    i would say that despite my emotions towards George Zimmerman i don't support vigilantism against him or anyone else
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:12 pm

    It would be nice if I never had to see anything like this posted anywhere ever again:

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by undo on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:14 pm

    I have a lot of strong feelings about this.

    I should probably think about other things that won't drive me crazy.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by undo on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:23 pm

    Ned Braden I have a lot to say about stiff like that too. Where do I even begin?

    This is one topic that always leaves me feeling really shitty about life, I'm conflicted about whether or not to go there right now.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by chrondog on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:28 pm

    gonna be an interesting week
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by raj gibson on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:32 pm

    I thought about making a noble con post but it would basically be trolling because I actually think stand your ground laws are a dumb answer in search of a problem.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by chrondog on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:06 am

    the defense didn't lean heavily on the stand your ground law, did they?

    reading the immediate article on CNN, i was surprised that this was the definition of second degree murder in Florida:

    CNN wrote:For second-degree murder, the jurors would have had to believe that Martin's unlawful killing was "done from ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent" and would be "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life."
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Nick on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:38 am

    Fuck America.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by raj gibson on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:51 am

    jasperness wrote:the defense didn't lean heavily on the stand your ground law, did they?

    I don't know. But the attitude of deference toward police (or anyone with a gun, really) is behind a lot of the knee-jerk sympathy for Zimmerman's position, IMO.

    Particularly glaring since crime has steadily gone down in recent decades even as that mentality has grown.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:25 am

    Fuck it. 
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:40 am

    So badly just want to ignore this right now but I just can't. Honestly the worst I can remember feeling about humanity.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:35 am

    The way I see it, Martin was the one who was never given the right to "stand his ground." Verdict seems to confirm that it is now legal to confront and provoke anybody you deem as a "thug," and if they fight back, you can murder them. I am not ok with this, and I never will be.

    Regarding this whole "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" thing, ok. Fine. Best case scenario in my mind is that a murderer just walked for lack of evidence. This is certainly not the first or last time it will happen. It still pisses me off though, since I am a man who does not support murder.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Duff... on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:05 am

    As best I can figure out, in Florida, if a couple of dudes have a dispute over which one of them is the aggressor and the one that brought a gun doesn't die, then we should be cool with that.

    Undo, Ned, be angry about this. Forever. It's an outrage.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Duff... on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:07 am

    Ned Braden wrote:It would be nice if I never had to see anything like this posted anywhere ever again:


    Funny you're a racist sexist asshole. Get fucked.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:27 am

    I'm supposed to be writing another research paper right now and this is the only thing I can think about. God fucking dammit.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:28 am

    Who gives a fuck about a German return to normalcy when there's people just running around willie nillie and killing black dudes for no god damn reason at all and fucking getting away with it?
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:37 am

    I'm not even looking forward to reading Onion articles about this. I don't know if I can laugh at human tragedy anymore.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by zappo on Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:49 am

    Andrew James T, Esq. is furious. As he should be.

    Andy T wrote:If only Travon was white.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by chrondog on Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:51 pm

    we can all take solace in the fact that our legal system permitted the killing of unarmed black teens well before Trayvon Martin and will continue to do so long after him
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by yancy on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:15 am

    Ned Braden wrote:I don't know if I can laugh at human tragedy anymore.
    I tried on twitter: "Florida is officially worse than Flo Rida." Forgot to hashtag it #toosoon.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Nick on Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:35 am

    My inability to laugh off tragedy means my Internet enjoyment levels have slowly gone down.

    Shit, pretty soon I'll be logging into message boards as a totally humorless user that wants to actually talk about stuff.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by Ned Braden on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:12 am

    I am going to type out my frustrations so sorry in advance for this tldr rant


    Breaking down this racist murder debacle:  a cerebral analysis:

    Facts to consider:
    *   Trayvon Martin in 2012 was not the same as Trayvon Martin from the 2007 picture everybody is showing on the news. He was a big, tough dude. It is very likely that he could and did beat the shit out of George Zimmerman, although to say Zimmerman “feared for his life” is a stretch that I’m not buying.
    *   George Zimmerman had no reason to suspect Trayvon Martin of committing a crime. He was a black kid with a hoody, and Zimmerman did not like the look of this.
    *   George Zimmerman, in calling the police, took an intelligent and reasonable course of action seeing as how he suspected Martin of malicious intent. However, when the police told him not to interfere and to wait in his car, he refused to follow this advice. If he was indeed acting in official capacity as a “neighbourhood watch officer,” this should be seen as a disobeyment of a direct order.
    *   There is a severe lack of credible witnesses, and what they claim to have witnessed is not enough to make a determination of who was the aggressor in the situation. This sucks, but it’s the unfortunate truth.
    * There was a fistfight, and Zimmerman appears to have lost (broken nose, etc). It is difficult to determine who started the fight, but my bet is on Zimmerman - the man who falsely accused the other of a crime based on what seem like obviously racist assumptions and then angrily confronted him about it. If you define “initiated” to mean the man who threw the first punch, you will likely disagree with me. Martin appeared not to have taken any notable punches (though, to be fair, this may just be because Zimmerman isn’t good at fighting).

    My interpretation of the situation, and initial conclusion:
    *   Two guys had a fight. One falsely accused the other of a crime, and a physical confrontation occurred. Upon falling to a physical disadvantage, one man fatally shot the other.
    *   Is “self defense” a potential excuse for this shooting? Perhaps, if you believe Zimmerman legitmately "feared for his life, which again, I personally ain't buying. But even so, if we consider this excuse sufficient to absolve the man of any wrongdoing, we set a dangerous precedent. Essentially, this says that as far as Florida law is concerned, every (non black) man has the right to start fights with his neighbours, and if the fight doesn’t go the way they want, they have the right to use deadly force against them.

    Charges?
    *   The law’s definition of second-degree murder is pretty fucking insane, from what I’ve read, but it’s still a pretty close call imo.
    *   At the least, I’d give Zimmerman max years for manslaughter, a charge that was supposedly on the table for the jury, who admitted they “didn’t understand” it (citation needed…  read this somewhere in a haze of fury).

    Shit's fucked up, so who fucked up?
    *   The cops that arrived on the initial scene. Not arresting Zimmerman transformed what was bound to be a case with racial undertones into a case of HOLY SHIT RACISM overtones that drowned out other important issues.
    *   George Zimmerman. When the police officer told him to cool his jets and in stay in the car, he damn well should’ve done that. Instead, he carried with him his anger and penchant for vigilante justice, and he started a fight that never should’ve happened. Then, he fucking killed a guy. That he was able to do this without facing any punishment is an unforgivable fucking shame, and it makes America look like a collective of racist, gun supporting assholes.  
    *   The prosecution. They brought a shit case to trial, and then they overplayed their hand by pushing for a murder charge they probably weren’t gonna get.
    *   The media. They were very very VERY justified for turning up the volume on this shit, because it is an unforgivable tragedy. Cramming a Trayvon from 5 years ago eating skittles and playing little league down everybody’s throats, was a blatant falsity which severely undermined their credibility and which provided right wing savages with ammo for…  you know, being assholes about it.

    In Conclusion
    Fuck life.
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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Post by raj gibson on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:44 am

    Ned Braden wrote:In Conclusion
    Fuck life.

    Maybe you are already doing this, but the best thing you (and everyone angered by this) can do is take action for change. There will be opportunities to support the End Racial Profiling Act. Probably lots of other ways to take action too in the wake of the trial's conclusion.

    It's fine to vent on message boards but doing something concrete might be the only way to make yourself really feel better.

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

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