THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

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    chrondog
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:11 pm

    raj gibson wrote:
    Ҩ wrote:The Republican party and their values are disgusting. I want their voices to be marginalized as much as possible politically and culturally.

    Wrestling Pun outs himself with the kind of left-wing savagery that I always assumed only existed as a boogeyman in Limbaugh fever dreams
    :drudge sirens:

    I'd give him some credit for being straightforward about these political fights are actually about. I wouldn't think WP means this in the sense of "let's violate someone's free speech or deny their right to expression". Just that the point of leftist politics is to marginalize the voice of those that seek to aggressively restrict immigration, abortion, economic mobility, etc. They should be marginalized by a political culture that is constantly moving towards more tolerance and inclusiveness.
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    reuben
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by reuben on Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:34 pm

    You guys, what if Trump made Kanye his running mate?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by raj gibson on Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:23 pm

    jasperness wrote:
    raj gibson wrote:
    Ҩ wrote:The Republican party and their values are disgusting. I want their voices to be marginalized as much as possible politically and culturally.

    Wrestling Pun outs himself with the kind of left-wing savagery that I always assumed only existed as a boogeyman in Limbaugh fever dreams
    :drudge sirens:

    I'd give him some credit for being straightforward about these political fights are actually about. I wouldn't think WP means this in the sense of "let's violate someone's free speech or deny their right to expression". Just that the point of leftist politics is to marginalize the voice of those that seek to aggressively restrict immigration, abortion, economic mobility, etc. They should be marginalized by a political culture that is constantly moving towards more tolerance and inclusiveness.

    I was half joking and sure I would give him credit for being dyspeptic or exaggerating to make his point. But I would say there's a key difference between fighting reactionary policy and "marginalizing voices." The latter is literally restricting speech and that's the point where progressive policy (the stuff you're describing) becomes little more than "leftist politics." I'm sure some people will say this is semantics but I couldn't disagree more. I think the tendency to drift from "work to change reactionary/regressive laws and attitudes" to "marginalize/repress reactionary ideas and voices" is one of the biggest internal dangers to progressive causes.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by zappo on Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:43 pm

    One of the saddest parts of growing up, for me, was realizing how many people who tend to share my "progressive positions," or whatever, actually understand what you are very correctly saying.  Hardly "just" a matter of semantics.

    Edit: says it all, really.

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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:47 pm

    raj gibson wrote:I'm sure some people will say this is semantics but I couldn't disagree more. I think the tendency to drift from "work to change reactionary/regressive laws and attitudes" to "marginalize/repress reactionary ideas and voices" is one of the biggest internal dangers to progressive causes.

    who do you think you're talking to here? chopping shit up into these nuances is what it's all about. i couldn't even respond to your post in the Beyonce thread because you got down to such a nuanced level i basically agreed with you.

    nothing could be more important for the future of progressivism than distinguishing between changing policy/minds and silencing dissent. i was thinking of "marginalizing the right" in the sense of working to change enough minds that their policy prescriptions get further and further out of the mainstream.

    i find it very painful to have gotten to the point where i feel the need to do internal policing on the left to prevent people from going off the deep end in terms of thought/speech policing. i don't want to agree with the nutjobs that talk about the PC police! and i don't because their moaning is reactionary and comes from the wrong place. but there are so many instances where the left's obsession with identity politics, representation, and politically correct speech is only a tool of division rather than education. we can't expect everyone from every background and education level to understand these issues on the same level and speak about them in the same way. there needs to be room for exploration, mistakes, and re-education.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:53 pm

    Duff... wrote:I'm more vexed by the "If Bernie doesn't win I'm skipping the generals" talk.

    from the most recent Bloomberg poll of South Carolina Democrats:



    polls bare out that the overlap between Sanders/Clinton voters is actually stronger than it generally is among potential nominees from the same party. the notion of an "enthusiasm gap" among Democrats is completely made up by media outlets grasping at straws.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:31 am

    I'm not saying that people who don't agree with leftist politics should be thrown in a prison cell. There are a lot of ways to marginalize voices. I'm just saying that reactionary ideologies are going to continue to exist and validating them in anyway is something to be avoided.

    It's a very high-minded idea to change minds and I think at this specific historical conjecture that is the task of progressive and leftist politics. It's all that we are left ( howyadoin ) with right now at least. So basically, I'm totally in agreement with you guys. But I still believe that there does come a time when that high-mindedness should be of secondary importance. Look at the people who are voting for Trump and Cruz. They are predominantly white working class people. When you come across them, as I'm sure you all do from time to time, it blows your fucking mind.

    For example, I remember my family hired this guy who would come work on our house when I was a little kid. The house was sort of a piece of shit and so he would help my Dad on repairs (although mostly it was him doing all of the work). I was little so I would follow him around and pretend to help him paint a wall or something. Really the solidest and nicest dude ever. A few years back he had a stroke and broke his leg within the same month. He almost died but he recovered to find himself in ridiculous levels of debt and totally unable to work (also, in case this wasn't sad enough yet he has a son who is about five years younger than me).

    I bring this up because this same guy would resist any attempt by the government to institute universal health care even though it would benefit him immeasurably. I know this because years ago we had a friendly argument in my garage about that exact topic. So what I'm saying is this... Yes, if it is possible to educate people and build enough national consent that we could democratically transform our institutions to be based on compassion and equality rather than profit-maximization then that is the best option. And I do think that is possible, even though it is 'incremental' rather than immediate and revolutionary. I have no problem with that.

    All I'm saying is that people have been having this conversation for a long time and at some point, if you have the opportunity, you've gotta know that some people actually don't know what is best for them.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:42 am

    jasperness wrote:the notion of an "enthusiasm gap" among Democrats is completely made up by media outlets grasping at straws.
    I don't know man. I think it is because I find myself on a college campus during all of this but there definitely seems to be quite a bit of enthusiasm about Bernie.

    Also, Duff, if I felt my singular vote mattered I would vote for Hillary over any other GOP candidate. Like you said though, we live in Illinois so it really doesn't.

    jasperness wrote:who do you think you're talking to here? chopping shit up into these nuances is what it's all about. i couldn't even respond to your post in the Beyonce thread because you got down to such a nuanced level i basically agreed with you.
    Also, this same thing happened to me. I was just driving in my car for an hour and I spent about half the car ride thinking about those Beyonce posts and trying to figure out some way to intelligently disagree with it. I came up with absolutely nothing.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:24 am

    jasperness wrote:
    Duff... wrote:I'm more vexed by the "If Bernie doesn't win I'm skipping the generals" talk.

    from the most recent Bloomberg poll of South Carolina Democrats:



    polls bare out that the overlap between Sanders/Clinton voters is actually stronger than it generally is among potential nominees from the same party. the notion of an "enthusiasm gap" among Democrats is completely made up by media outlets grasping at straws.

    Good to know, though I don't think media outlets are goading people to talk tough on my Facebook feed.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:25 am

    And you've all met Raj, right?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by raj gibson on Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:13 pm

    Yeah I probably agree with y'all on 95% of what you're saying. But I can never seem to leave that last 5% alone. Wink
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:02 pm

    Duff... wrote:
    jasperness wrote:
    Duff... wrote:I'm more vexed by the "If Bernie doesn't win I'm skipping the generals" talk.

    from the most recent Bloomberg poll of South Carolina Democrats:



    polls bare out that the overlap between Sanders/Clinton voters is actually stronger than it generally is among potential nominees from the same party. the notion of an "enthusiasm gap" among Democrats is completely made up by media outlets grasping at straws.

    Good to know, though I don't think media outlets are goading people to talk tough on my Facebook feed.

    one in ten people having reservations about a potential nominee from "their own party" is not a hugely different than historical patterns, but it is still a lot of people. 10% of voices is very loud. it just has to be contextualized. from that same Bloomberg poll (http://media.bloomberg.com/bb/avfile/rYvhghpmwySE)--35% of Republicans say they would never vote for Trump, 33% would never vote Jeb!, 31% would never vote Cruz, and 21% would never vote Rubio.

    there's no reading of this primary season where the Democrats are self-inflicting more damage on themselves than Republicans. that's not to say that Democrats shouldn't STILL try to minimize the in-party sniping (and i think Bernie's campaign has been very guilty of ramping up these kind of unproductive attacks in the last month), but the net effect on the general is FAR more likely to dampen Republican enthusiasm. once the evangelicals realize they're not getting Cruz, a lot of them will stay at home. once the anti-establishment Trumpers have to choose between Hillary and Rubio, they'll stay home.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:52 pm

    10% of voices is very loud.
    Ain't it the truth.

    Convince me Trump and Cruz are gonna fall off soon, my liver needs a break.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:39 pm

    i have zero faith in Rubio and Republican voters have zero faith in Jeb!, so that is unfortunately unlikely.

    Romney could've hopped in this race and smashed all these clowns three months ago if their party wasn't so dysfunctional to the core.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:15 pm

    Jeb has millions in his war chest those conference calls with his donors must be brutal.

    Trump's nomination is a give at this point. Slightly terrified to see what happens at that point.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by petey on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:58 pm

    Trump is the best option of the remaining Republican candidates, IMO. Cruz is the worst everything.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:49 pm

    petey wrote:Trump is the best option of the remaining Republican candidates, IMO.  Cruz is the worst everything.

    I spent quite a bit of time thinking about this the other day, and I remain wholly unconvinced by the "Trump is the best of the bunch" argument. Trump feels incredibly, incredibly dangerous, especially from a foreign policy perspective. How is that guy going to make state visits with President Xi in China? How is he going to be able to advance any American interest on the world stage? He doesn't know what he's talking about, and his default is to attack and demean. Maybe some people believe that's all campaign bluster and that, when in office, he's going to morph into some sophisticated dealmaker? I see no evidence of that. I think he would drastically reduce America's global influence and pose a huge risk of making some ill-advised military foray.

    I think the same is true of Cruz, so combined with his social positions he is indeed the worst. I'll take any of Jeb, Rubio, or Kasich above those two. And I still think those latter three will all be awful.


    Last edited by jasperness on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:25 pm

    It only makes sense that America would elect the first African American President and follow that up with the first reality TV star to be elected President.

    I thought electing GWB twice was the low point for the country from an international influence perspective but we could really make that look like nothing with Trump. What a collection of fucking idiots living here that has allowed this to happen. Fuck this country it is just a terrible place
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:09 am

    Really feeling the last two posts.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ned Braden on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:20 am

    ^ Seriously. Reading stuff on Facebook. I fucking hate everybody these days.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by reuben on Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:53 am

    Bernie must be the first presidential candidate whose popularity is actually boosted by footage of him getting arrested.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:35 pm

    Spent the last couple of hours phone banking Illinois residents to determine whether or not Bernie Sanders could count on their support in the upcoming primary! It was actually a really enjoyable and refreshing experience. When I did that for Iowa I was berated several times. I got a bunch of people who were happy to express their support and were also interested in volunteering opportunities.

    The only people who would be assholes were 18-21 year old white men who would scoff and saying they were voting for Trump. I would always ask them if they could explain their reasoning and the response was "none of your business" or "I like his name." Pretty fucking disgusting. I would tell them to go fuck themselves but I'm pretty sure my calls are monitored...
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:48 pm

    You know, despite all my fiery sentiments this actually makes me upset and nervous more than angry. I feel like America failed in some deep, profound way for a man like Donald Trump to win this much support. It really makes me uneasy and anxious. Sad
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ned Braden on Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:19 pm

    That's sort of what I feel like when one of our routine mass killings happens. It's like, we've identified ways we might be able to reduce them, but at every opportunity Americans have voted against giving them a try. And then, the more I read the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" arguments, the more upset I get, thinking that they might be true. Perhaps these things happen so regularly in America because we are inherently worse people than those living in other countries.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:15 am

    Damn... imlikewhoa

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