THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

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    Nick
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:35 am

    I guess putting the worst possible Democratic candidate in the field as our nominee wasn't the best idea after all.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:15 am

    I suspect it wouldn't have mattered much. There R literally hundreds of reasons Trump should have lost in a landslide, people just wanted awful this election.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:25 am

    I think I saw a Tweet stating this was the lowest voter turnout since 08? In a year when the alternative was a Fascist who has multiple rape accusations and won the endorsement of the KKK and spineless white men across the country I think having such an unfavorable Democrat was not great.

    I don't know that Bernie would have won though I seriously think he would have taken 3rd Part voted and inspired a percent of the stay at homes to vote.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:05 pm

    I dunno, I just feel like if U're willing to vote 4 a Fascist who has multiple rape accusations and won the endorsement of the KKK instead of anyone, U're willing to a Fascist who has multiple rape accusations and won the endorsement of the KKK instead of everyone. But maybe I'm wrong.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:23 pm

    46.9% of eligible voters did not vote. That is straight up unmotivated, disgusted by their options people throughout the country. She was a horrible candidate given the mood of the opposition. And the DNC paved the way so the Clinton Dynasty could carry on.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:40 pm

    chrondog wrote:we got this

    whoops
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:43 pm

    Nick wrote:46.9% of eligible voters did not vote. That is straight up unmotivated, disgusted by their options people throughout the country. She was a horrible candidate given the mood of the opposition. And the DNC paved the way so the Clinton Dynasty could carry on.

    i C a lot of people saying today that "the DNC picked the wrong candidate". they certainly preferred Hillary and had some machinations behind the scenes to help her, but more people still voted 4 her. there's lots of older, establishment Democrats that liked Hillary and voted 4 her in the primary. it wasn't just the party machinery.

    there is definitely good reason to believe that Bernie would not have performed so poorly in the Midwest/Rust Belt. Bernie Sanders would've won Wisconsin, right? from the primaries and the polls, it's clear his message resonated much better with the white working class than Hillary. the assumption, however, was that they could not be mobilized enough to swing an election. that was demonstrated to be untrue.

    raj gibson wrote:Still digesting what is rapidly becoming very real but posting here to acknowledge that I'm running on a year and a half of being very wrong about the Direction of Things and many of U who I thought were needlessly pessimistic were absolutely right. I know that's no comfort to U now.

    Like a lot of people I'm torn between fuck-everything feelings of giving up and a strong urge to do something positive in the weeks/months/years to come and I'm going to make a sincere effort to pitch my brain in the latter direction. Will check back here periodically and welcome any calls to action in that regard. Hope U R all safe tonight. I still believe there's a better world out there.

    i have begun to accept that the culture wars R here to stay and R not magically disappearing anytime soon. i no longer have faith that "demographic changes" or "generational changes" will transform our politics on their own. there R lots of young Trumpites. by most early returns, around 20% of Black men voted 4 Trump. around 35% of Hispanics voted 4 Trump. some polls have white women going 4 Trump. that doesn't scream "demographics is king" to me. people and the electorate R malleable. as i've said in the past, in a country where half of eligible voters do not participate, any political coalition U can imagine is possible.

    people will literally believe anything if it's a strong narrative. some outlets R reporting that this was the strongest evangelical turnout in history. white evangelicals voting 4 the philandering, formerly pro-choice, pro-gay, New Yorker?! these people don't have any real values. they R looking 4 a movement and an identity. it's Monday Morning Quarterback stuff, but Bernie may have been able to reach them. there's strong polling evidence that "socialism" has been gaining cache among the white working class. if instead of saying "immigrants and refugees and inner city blacks R stealing your money" like Trump, Bernie came in and said "the rich guys and the bankers R the ones that ACTUALLY stole your money", some will believe that. is it easier to believe in a conspiracy perpetrated by Syrian refugees or by business school douchebags on Wall Street?

    then again, as many have also pointed out, Trump won high income people. maybe there really weren't enough of the white working class to turn anything. that is the most shameless truth to me. rich, white (and, sickeningly, some non-white) assholes who could know better R in bed with this shit because they R as heartless and cynical as they can be. affluent Michiganders living in the Detroit suburbs in insular communities said "fuck these other people". that's devastating.

    i'm having to again seriously consider a career in some sort of political/policy/advocacy role as a lifetime commitment because of the level of unseriousness i C in our politics. Americans R unserious about consequences because we R so insulated in our comfortable American bubble. how can i live in this America that has embraced or tolerated such racism and xenophobia as a means to an end without working everyday to combat that ideology?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by ? Ospink on Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:56 pm

    Hillary isn't to blame. She was a good candidate with real accomplishments and solid foreign policy chops (in a time when it's desperately needed).

    This is on us.


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    Nick
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:20 pm

    Right, Hilary is blameless in all of this. Her and her campaign hit every nail on the head. Get the fuck out of here.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:45 pm

    dude
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:50 pm

    When they go low, we go high.

    Yes, perfect strategy given the base of support she was up against and millions of voters willing to sit this one out.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by ? Ospink on Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:56 pm

    Yeah, people just really need to be inspired. That's where it all went wrong.



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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:17 pm

    When U win all three debates and your polling is looking bulletproof, why would U switch things up?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:55 pm

    ? Ospink wrote:Hillary isn't to blame.  She was a good candidate with real accomplishments and solid foreign policy chops (in a time when it's desperately needed).  

    This is on us.

    i mean, as a politician her job is to understand what the electorate wants and appeal to that. she misfired on that as many of the prognosticators did. she wasn't alone in making a lot of the assumptions about the strength of her candidacy that she did, but she ended up being wrong along with all of those people. as the chief executive of that decisionmaking process if she can't be held responsible, no one can. U and i may want someone with real accomplishments and foreign policy chops, but voters don't. so U really can't argue she's a "good candidate" just because she has those things. she is "traditionally qualified", more accurately.

    Duff... wrote:When U win all three debates and your polling is looking bulletproof, why would U switch things up?

    again, i can appreciate why Hillary thought she was on solid ground. i felt the same way 4 the same reasons. but as much as models and polls R the best thing we've got, they're not predictive of large swings in the electorate. they will always have a torrid time trying to reflect turnout. with all the resources she has, her job was to appeal to as many people as possible. she banked on a conservative strategy of not antagonizing anyone, not doing that many appearances, and not having a coherent appeal in her messaging. and i thought that conservative strategy would work because i trust the smart people who work on polls and models! but they're third party actors who R not in charge. Hillary can't deflect her failings onto 538 like i can.

    she is supposed to be the old head. the "electable one". and her candidacy depressed turnout. no way around it.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Soma on Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:30 pm

    Is it normal 4 the resignation speech to be as reverential to the opposition as Obama's?

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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:09 pm

    Just think how in 4 years time Trump/Pence will have set the country back a solid 50 years and not fulfilled any of their promises to those Rust Belters. We will have 3 more debates where Trump "loses" and then 4 months of polling that suggests the Dems retake the White House.

    Only to be shocked when he wins a second term because the party will probably nominate some weak mother fucker like Tim Kaine.

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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:16 pm

    I guess how I feel is if half the electorate either actively wants or is reasonably comfortable with fascism, it's not the losing candidate I'm going to be angry with. I'm never going to fault someone 4 not fighting hard enough 4 the fascist vote.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:29 pm

    Duff... wrote:I guess how I feel is if half the electorate either actively wants or is reasonably comfortable with fascism, it's not the losing candidate I'm going to be angry with. I'm never going to fault someone 4 not fighting hard enough 4 the fascist vote.

    i think that's a misreading of the situation. they don't want facism, per se, they want answers. they want anything. like i said, how else do U explain evangelicals coming out in force to vote 4 a morally bankrupt man who doesn't share any of their values? if someone else came along with a more compelling argument they would run in that direction. in a two party system, we can't treat a vote 4 Trump as evidence that all his positions R popular in the same way we can't argue that electing Obama twice meant racism was over. i suspect there R plenty of people who voted 4 Trump that would flip to a populist progressive if that candidate articulated their discontents. Hillary didn't even really try.

    it's frustrating to treat the electorate as either/or. one of the lessons i'm trying to take away from all of this is, again, that anything is possible in American politics. there R so many people, so many non-participants, so many arcane, antiquated, and complex rules and systems that make it difficult 4 people to actively participate. Trump won because he compelled people to create this outcome. so many other outcomes were also possible and we shouldn't discount them just because we C what did happen. people have complex motivations even if it's easy to call Trump supporters "ignorant" as i regularly do.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:45 am

    Being in Chicago today was like attending a funeral. I saw so many people crying on campus. In my seminar we read an amazing book on the New Deal Era called Fear Itself, which I strongly recommend. It couldn't have been more poignant given our new political reality. Even my professors cried today.


    Last edited by Ҩ on Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:52 am

    chrondog wrote:i'm having to again seriously consider a career in some sort of political/policy/advocacy role as a lifetime commitment because of the level of unseriousness i C in our politics. Americans R unserious about consequences because we R so insulated in our comfortable American bubble. how can i live in this America that has embraced or tolerated such racism and xenophobia as a means to an end without working everyday to combat that ideology?
    I'm having the exact same thoughts. Also, I completely agree with your analysis on everything right now. It doesn't make me feel any better right now but we need to start seriously thinking about alternatives. Cory Booker is not that alternative. Bill Clinton completely snipped any meaningful relationship that the Democratic Party had with organized labor and working classes in this country. That's an overstatement, sure, and a historical simplification. The Democratic Party needs to rebuild, entirely. Its policies were repudiated in an astonishing way last night.

    In the meantime, I kind of hope things chill out 4 a little bit. I don't expect that they will and I don't blame anyone 4 being incredibly fucking pissed off right now. I'm one of those people. But this energy needs to be channeled in productive ways.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:22 am

    I'm not trying to say every Trump supporter wants fascism. But republican voters asked almost literally nothing of their nominee, as Trump made unforced error after unforced error, ignoring political norms and praising dictators and promising to limit press freedoms. Meanwhile it was a scandal when Clinton called racists deplorable. The democratic party isn't great, and Clinton is part of that, but if we as a nation would prefer the rapist who idolizes Putin, then I can only conclude the problem lies with we as a nation.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:26 am

    Duff... wrote:The democratic party isn't great, and Clinton is part of that, but if we as a nation would prefer the rapist who idolizes Putin, then I can only conclude the problem lies with we as a nation.

    It's certainly deserved, but not inevitable. Clinton played to our higher instincts and Trump played to our base ones. Base won out. Americans R crass and crude. If Democrats spent more time speaking to deplorables than lecturing them it would help win elections. That doesn't have to mean using disgusting rhetoric, it can simply be speaking to people's experiences and proposing policies that would actually help them instead of the corporatist shit we got right now.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:00 pm

    I think Chrono is completely accurate with that post. Trump won the Rust Belt because he told the struggling middle and lower-middle class their lives R terrible and getting worse. It's how they felt and what they needed to hear.

    Hilary told them their lives R great and America is already great because "America is good." The fuck did she think would happen?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:18 pm

    Yesterday was difficult but I was sure that each day would be easier than the last. I had about five seconds after I woke up this morning before I remembered that any of this had happened and I've just felt like complete shit ever since then.

    Day to day depression is just completely unbearable but this just makes me not even want to get out of bed at all. Yesterday I thought I could cope with this by starting some kind of project or picking something to focus on so that I wouldn't have to think about any of this stuff. But it's not that easy, is it?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:19 pm

    Trump will get minimum 2 Supreme Court nominees in his first term alone, 3 is not unrealistic at all.

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