THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:24 pm

    Trump’s margin among evangelical white Christians has been huge -- 81-16 percent. We have data just since 2004, but this is the widest GOP margin among white evangelicals in that time.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:29 pm

    I haven't enjoyed all the focus being heaped on Exit Polls two days after the election because they're notoriously useless. They're less rigorous and scientific than even the state polls that were off by 3-4 points this election. We shouldn't be making too many blanket statements about demographics (I'm a bit guilty of this too) until more data comes in.

    Another big issue on the "demographic advantage" front is that the Democrats natural advantages R getting fucked by the Electoral College. Piling up supermajorities on the coasts because young liberals and minorities move to coastal cities is not going to help win elections in the future. The growth of Hispanic populations throughout Middle America is helping, but not that quickly. That's why I feel especially dire now about the left wing strategy of "go high". Especially because that has ceased to be about decorum (which many liberals barely have either) and is more about shouting at people from the "moral high ground".

    This election has crystalized my anger at the divisions on the left between progressives and liberals, and between the forces of traditional politics and modern, identity politics. We have our differences and they R profound and important, but politics can be about coalition! It is not about ideological purity as some have tried to make it. As much as I am disgusted with white collar, six figure income Republicans who voted 4 Donald Trump because he's on "their team", that is a winning mentality. It has always been something the right is good at. Even evangelical Republicans vote en masse against their conscience to be team players. We need team players on the left. As much as I personally enjoy things like Jezebel and Black Twitter rable-rousing and holding people's feet to the fire, they can't be a mainstream voice.  Empathy and recruitment of the crass, the crude, the uneducated, and the vitriolic has to be a higher priority than "calling them out".


    Last edited by chrondog on Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:55 pm

    Jasper is absolutely right and I sincerely hope that people within the Democratic Party R smart enough to figure that out. 2018 and 2020 depends on it.

    In other news, I've had a terrible tension headache 4 two straight days now. They're intense migraines that sometimes cause me to hear buzzing in my ears. This shit is actually going to end up effecting my health and well-being in profound ways.

    Goddamnit!!!!!!!
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:59 pm

    Ҩ wrote:Jasper is absolutely right and I sincerely hope that people within the Democratic Party R smart enough to figure that out.

    They never have been before.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:19 pm

    Well, this is the most catastrophic result 4 the party in at least half a century so hopefully that counts 4 something.

    I never thought I'd C an election as bleak as 2000 and this feels many, many times worse.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:49 pm

    I'm probably going to take an extended break from the Internet because it just seems necessary at this point 4 my own mental well being.

    Nothing but the most positive of vibes R being sent out to all of U right now. This isn't the apocalypse. We R going to get through this bullshit.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by tjenz on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:04 am

    Now Paul Ryan is says he wants to privatize Medicare. There is nothing to stop him.
    I'm guessing most people didn't even know that was on the ballot.

    We need to seriously look at our democracy when U have 2 presidential elections in 16 years where the person in second place wins.
    Thanks to gerrymandering, the house keeps it's GOP majority, even though more people across the country voted 4 democrats.

    I'm seeing so many straw men in my facebook feed, since the election. Trying to not light a match and start battles within my family.


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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:16 pm

    I avoided family battles through 8 years of GWB. Don't have the strength to go through that during Trump so giving zero fucks who I alienate now.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:42 pm

    I want to choose to be galvanized by this rejection of human dignity in favor of hateful politics to make my life as beautiful and meaningful as I can. Since I graduated college I haven't done that. I've sought refuge in hedonistic pleasures, coasting along, and never putting forth full effort to feel connected to the world around me. No more! I can't settle 4 simply getting by in Donald Trump's America. I need to thrive, to put my spirit out there, and to let my life be a light shining against the ugliness in the world.

    Join me.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:30 am

    Chrono, I've really appreciated your insight and perspective and it's actually provided a bit of relief 4 me these last few days. So U R already shining a bit of a light.

    And yeah, I'll be joining U. However, I also think it's really important 4 all of us to accept our limitations and not become intimidated or beaten down by the Herculean task in front of us. This might not apply to all of us, and perhaps I'm only speaking to myself, but it's important to be mindful and practice self-care.

    I fear that this may come across as some New Age bullshit and I'm certainly not trying to advocate 4 a quietist approach to social justice and reform. At all. Basically, just take care of yourselves.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:26 pm

    I had a dentist appointment this morning and in the waiting room some dude was wearing a shirt that said Black Rifles Matter.

    Wondered if he'd wear that no matter what or if he felt emboldened by the election to wear such a vile shirt.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:03 am

    I was talking to this girl I know from college who I hadn't heard from in a while and she told me she was sexually harassed by two assholes who then, explicitly, stated that they could do things like that now because Trump is President.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:06 am

    I wonder if I could pull off walking with a cane somehow. Probably not, but at least then I'd always have something to use in case I needed to literally beat someone like that within an inch of their worthless fucking life.

    My imagined political praxis is quickly devolving into just shit Joe Pesci does.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:05 pm

    Every single night I wake up at 3:00 or 4:00 and then just lay there for an hour thinking about this.

    This message board is the only site I have that doesn't have anyone who's celebrating this or brushing it off with some "they were both equally bad"/"lol I'm above caring about this" bullshit, and I don't know if I have the self-control to ignore it even though calling them out on it will probably get me banned.

    My parents are still totally distraught, I've never seen them like this.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by C-poots on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:04 pm

    So far I have no idea what to think of this guy. I still despise him but like that he is threatening to try to impose term limits in Congress and "promises" not to touch gay marriage. Then again, Steven Bannon.

    If you guys are planning on borrowing money from a bank or something, you should probably do that now before rates go back to being much higher.

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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:10 pm

    Term limits are dumb. Also his promises mean nothing. The only thing protecting gay marriage is the current make up of the supreme court, and we should probably expect a law sooner or later "protecting 'religious freedom'" since his party kept congress. He's nakedly corrupt in his appointment priorities, he's woefully unprepared to even begin the process of taking over the presidency, yeah, Steven Bannon, and like literally a few hundred other things. Your thoughts on this guy should be pretty concrete by now.


    Last edited by Duff... on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:49 pm

    US presidential campaigns are the longest campaigns in the entire world. Why do we need more information about what Trump is like? Why does he need more time to "prove himself"? That shit is total hogwash and should be rejected by any thinking person.

    I understand why elected officials like Obama, in the interest of democracy and peaceful transition of power, have to feign this line of thinking. But for anyone with common sense Trump has shown his true colors. Even if he occasionally has an appealing position, he's worse than scum.

    Like I said earlier in this thread, he has no developed, consistent political ideology because he is not a thinker or interested in policy. He deserves zero credit for occasionally, accidentally touting a reformist message. He's just throwing shit against the wall.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by C-poots on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:13 pm

    Duff... wrote:Term limits are dumb. Also his promises mean nothing. The only thing protecting gay marriage is the current make up of the supreme court, and we should probably expect a law sooner or later "protecting 'religious freedom'" since his party kept congress. He's nakedly corrupt in his appointment priorities, he's woefully unprepared to even begin the process of taking over the presidency, yeah, Steven Bannon, and like literally a few hundred other things. Your thoughts on this guy should be pretty concrete by now.

    My wording was intended to be in a more conversational manner. I know what I think of the guy; I still find him repulsive, vile, and possibly a danger to the entire United States as a whole, but at the very least a danger to a majority of minority groups. I more-so mean to say I don't know what to think of what he will do once in office and I don't know that I believe he will do half of the brash actions he claimed he would do throughout his campaign cycle. The Steve Bannon appointment and the potential Giuliani for Secretary of State appointments are fucking terrifying and idiotic respectively though.

    Basically I'm resigned to the fact that Trump will be the President. But he isn't yet, so I'm watching for any positives that could come from him holding office. This is not me giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is a good person; this is me hoping that through the swamp of shit that I expect to be the next 4 years, there might be one or two positives that pop up.

    Also, why are term limits dumb in your opinion?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:19 pm

    Term limits suggest a correlation between corruption and service time, which is a super dubious connection. A long-serving, career politician could be someone who is a dedicated public servant and has extensive, applicable experience or they could be an influence peddler. Conversely, there are tons of examples of first-term politicians milking their office. I think a representative body should have a mix of newcomers and experienced, old heads. The voters can decide whether someone is abusing the position of their office, not an arbitrary term limit.

    I think a focus on something cosmetic like term limits distracts from real ethics reform.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by petey on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:55 pm

    I think that term limits are more intended to do away with the problem of legislators only concerned about reelection and staying in office and not taking risky votes or allowing votes on issues that might give the opposing party a "win." I have no evidence for this but I feel like legislators who announce that they are retiring at the end of their term feel more "free" to vote their conscience and work on legislation in a bipartisan manner
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:31 pm

    To me that's an argument for longer terms, not term limits. If congresspeople had, for example, a limit of four two-year terms, that would only incentivize them to "vote their conscience" for 2 out of 8 years. I don't think that's why people want term limits. Plus, it doesn't address the more prescient (I think) issue of fundraising, which is a bigger priority than legislation because terms are only two years. If congresspeople had four year terms it would allow junior members a longer time to build out their voting record before being judged, which should promote longer-term thinking.

    All of this to me is small potatoes until we overturn Citizen's United anyway. Money in politics is the single biggest waste of time and corruptor.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by tjenz on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:22 am

    You don't need term limits. You need to eliminate gerrymandering. Then the term limit thing sorts itself out when the pols have to be accountable to all the people, instead of just their own party.


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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by C-poots on Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:23 am

    Tjenz I totally agree, but these things you guys are reciprocating with aren't on the table at all right now and I'm talking about what is at the moment.

    I'm completely for ethics reform; the gerrymandering has played a crucial role in getting people elected who do not represent their constituency properly. Chrono I agree with you regarding Citizens United and think money is ruining a reasonably good political system otherwise. But again, these things aren't being presented by our soon-to-be president and I don't suspect they will be in the four years he is in office. Term limits, given 0 ethic or political reform otherwise, to me may still be a better system that what we have until the time comes where we can fix the underlying problems that give rise to the need for term limits in the first place.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:55 pm

    But why? Can you articulate any issue that term limits address? It seems like it would be a complete wash to me. Sometimes you'd term out terrible legislators who are gerrymandered in. Other times you'd term out dedicate and experienced public servants.

    I would much prefer age limits on elected office to term limits. Though I guess again that doesn't address "what's on the table". But then again, term limits are also not on the table just because Donald said they are. The Republican house will never vote to term limit its own members.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:37 am

    As this goes on I'm only feeling more certain this was more about anxiety surrounding gender and (especially) race than any economic message.

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