THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

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    C-poots
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by C-poots on Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:58 pm

    chrondog wrote:But why? Can you articulate any issue that term limits address? It seems like it would be a complete wash to me. Sometimes you'd term out terrible legislators who are gerrymandered in. Other times you'd term out dedicate and experienced public servants.

    You may be right, and admittedly my reading and conversation on this topic has been pretty one-sided. If you have anything worth reading on the other side of the argument I'd enjoy reading it. Also, the points you make are valid and think the issues that term limits solve could potentially introduce new issues I may have not factored in.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:45 pm

    Trump adviser to Nasa: no more climate change research

    The incoming administration will scrap Nasa’s climate change research and crack down on “politicized science”, Bob Walker, Donald Trump’s senior adviser on issues related to the space agency, said. The agency will focus on deep space exploration, following Trump’s campaign promise to explore the entire solar system before the end of the century. Nasa’s earth science division will have its budget cut, which will reduce its world-renowned research into temperature, ice, clouds and other climate phenomena. It was set to have its budget increased to $2bn in 2017, while space exploration was set to be $2.8bn. Walker said earth-centric science was better for other agencies and that Nasa should step away from what he previously called “politically correct environmental monitoring”.

    I can't cope with this shit I just can't. It's a weakness, I don't have it in me, I just want all these people to die.

    You can't call anyone out on their bullshit anymore, it's meaningless, no one cares.

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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Nick on Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:03 am

    I read that article at work around 2PM and was fighting back tears. I left to catch a train about 15 minutes later. Fuck everything.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:25 am

    That's so bleak.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:27 am

    My conservative aunt and uncle decided that they were offended by the implicit assumption that I didn't want to 'break bread' with them for Thanksgiving this year, because my grandmother is still with us and I love her more than anyone in the world I called them myself and made a genuine, although entirely unnecessary, apology.

    They decided they still didn't want to come. Now I'm doubly fucking pissed because not only did I have to appease these brownshirts but then they also spit in my face in response.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by raj gibson on Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:59 pm

    I'm as troubled by this as anyone and I'm not going to begrudge anyone their pessimism, but I would encourage people to keep talking about this and contacting elected officials about it.

    A majority of people in America take climate change seriously and believe it's a real threat. Trump is unprecedented among presidents in his desperate need to be popular and liked and accepted.

    I'm not holding my breath but I think there's a non-zero chance he moderates or even reverses his position on issues like this if people keep putting pressure on him. And even if he doesn't, keeping issues like this live will continue to strengthen resistance against him and build orgs and relationships to fight for these issues now and long after Trump is an unpleasant memory.

    Great issue for volunteering and donating money also. Worst-case scenario and they cut the funding completely? I would love to see private citizens raise $2 billion (or as much as possible) in donations annually for organizations and causes fighting on this issue or doing research independent of the government. It's a lot but it's not impossible.

    Really the worse Trump and his cronies are, the more people have to mobilize in response on every single key issue. It's non-optional at this point.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:59 am

    I agree with you, Raj, but that's simply not enough. I'm not trying to out maneuver you politically but, and I'll just go ahead and speak for all of us, as progressive socialists we need to focus the majority of our political attention on the State. Period.

    The Lilla article that has been making the rounds should be taken very seriously. I'm not suggesting that attacks against minority groups should be considered a separate issue, it isn't. And I'm not suggesting that we separate Trump's demagogic and hurtful rhetoric in the campaign from his actual political platform, we shouldn't. These things are inextricably linked and combatting them needs to be dynamic and flexible.

    All that being said, funnelling all of our attention into NGOs isn't helpful. It's putting a bandaid on a severed limb. As a socialist, I truly believe in the power of the State to function as both a regulating and liberating institution. Unfortunately, American political ideology, at least since Reagan and arguably since much later, is antithetical to that central belief. Clinton (both of them), Obama, and the vast array of centrist liberal democrats haven't challenged the the truly bizarre anti-Statism of conservative voters and have instead focused their campaign energy around this tenuous coalition of special interests and disparate identity politics. They've also refused to actually engage baseline issues of material inequality. There hasn't been any real effort towards criminal justice reform, educational funding, campaign finance reform, etc.

    That's the real issue. If we don't mobilize primarily on that front than we are being incredibly naive.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:07 am

    This isn't a working class revolt or a cultural war, it's an ideological battle. There is a difference and we have been losing for a long time.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:32 pm

    http://fair.org/home/lashing-out-at-identity-politics-pundits-blame-trump-on-those-most-vulnerable-to-trump/

    Every one of the above pundits who is blaming identity politics and political correctness for Trump, it can’t be stressed enough, hated identity politics to begin with, and would have regardless of who won. They’re jamming a long-held dislike into a topical and convenient narrative—an act that could be dismissed as cynical self-flattery if it wasn’t, in the face of an upsurge of reactionary politics, also helping provide ideological cover for racists and demagogues.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:52 pm

    That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:21 pm

    That Lilla article is way dumber.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:03 pm

    The timing of the piece is obnoxious and its target audience isn't New York Times readers. Also, the weird anecdotes about his experience in Europe are pretty fucking stupid.

    Basically, the execution of the piece is troubling but I completely agree with the general thesis. Campus politics are maddening. It's just very fractured and alienating.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:35 am

    Here's my own little anecdote, which I may have alluded to elsewhere on this board, but I think it drives home my point.

    I knew this kid at DePaul who fancied himself a radical activist. He was obsessed with intersectionality and saw it as a virtue in and of itself. He was also a gay man. One time I was asking him about some project he was working on and I mentioned, just in passing, that I was in a seminar on Marx's Capital that might elucidate some of his methodological concerns.

    His knee-jerk response was, "oh, is that where a bunch of white men sit around reducing all of history to class conflict?"

    I think that's the problem. Because the reality is that the professor was an Iranian-American who actually did real political work in Tehran and lost friends in the process. Who cares deeply about issues of gender and race. Whose wife is a Jewish women and academic whose entire career focuses on the intersection of gender and class formation. So no, dude, that isn't what it's about.

    And I don't even blame him. He just grew up in an intellectual environment where we stopped thinking of power as an aggregate social force that involves States and institutions. Instead its this airy thing that both constitutes and constrains. It's somehow everything and nothing. The dark shadow of Foucault makes it so that intellectuals can't actually claim their own moral or political convictions without constantly self-correcting. It's really sad actually.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by zappo on Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:15 am

    Ҩ wrote:The dark shadow of Foucault makes it so that intellectuals can't actually claim their own moral or political convictions without constantly self-correcting.

    Foucault radically changed my life (and for the better), but this is why I got out of academia. That's much more on me than anybody else, of course, but that doesn't change it. It's a strange, ugly, self-defeating and, I'd argue, inherently conservative cycle.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Duff... on Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:21 pm

    Campus politics didn't make poor white people in Kentucky vote for a bile-spewing billionaire, and I don't know what democrats can do to make 20-year-olds stop acting like 20-year-olds even if it would accomplish anything. While americans in general can stand to think about what happens in their country in terms of class way more than they do, it seems unlikely that these people who were quite willing to believe anything they wanted to about Trump would have been swayed by a slightly different intellectual appeal.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ted Falconi on Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:11 am


    A glimpse at what could have been.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ned Braden on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:02 am

    So this sucks.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ned Braden on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:07 am

    chrondog wrote:
    petey wrote:Trump is the best option of the remaining Republican candidates, IMO.  Cruz is the worst everything.

    I spent quite a bit of time thinking about this the other day, and I remain wholly unconvinced by the "Trump is the best of the bunch" argument. Trump feels incredibly, incredibly dangerous, especially from a foreign policy perspective. How is that guy going to make state visits with President Xi in China? How is he going to be able to advance any American interest on the world stage? He doesn't know what he's talking about, and his default is to attack and demean. Maybe some people believe that's all campaign bluster and that, when in office, he's going to morph into some sophisticated dealmaker? I see no evidence of that. I think he would drastically reduce America's global influence and pose a huge risk of making some ill-advised military foray.

    I think the same is true of Cruz, so combined with his social positions he is indeed the worst. I'll take any of Jeb, Rubio, or Kasich above those two. And I still think those latter three will all be awful.

    Nick wrote:It only makes sense that America would elect the first African American President and follow that up with the first reality TV star to be elected President.

    I thought electing GWB twice was the low point for the country from an international influence perspective but we could really make that look like nothing with Trump. What a collection of fucking idiots living here that has allowed this to happen. Fuck this country it is just a terrible place

    Ned Braden wrote:On the topic of Clinton's unfavorable...ness? I don't know how much of this is overreach and speculation, but it does a pretty good job of laying out the fears I have about a Trump v Clinton general election:
    http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
    Mostly boils down to, Trump will have tons and tons of ammo vs Clinton, far less against Sanders.

    Ned Braden wrote:
    Ҩ wrote:He did willingly re-tweet a fucking Mussolini quote last week.

    I do think the vast majority of his platform is entertainment, so I take all his insanity with a grain of salt.
    That said, the similarities in rhetoric DO exist. And if some of his scarier comments are a reflection of the policy he'd try to push while in office? Well fuck me right in the face, we shoulda seen it coming. This guy is garbage. As a person I am not a HRC fan either, but come the fuck on America. Grow the fuck up and maybe don't elect a schizophrenic fascist in 2016.
    Ned Braden wrote:Shit's just pro wrestling at this point. In the absence of a charismatic babyface, fans gonna root for the heel.


    ,,,,,,,,,,,,So... we've seen the writing on the walls this whole time, huh? Shit's fucked. Let's come up with a new political party. I'll be the figurehead, the number crunching dweeb in the background, or anything in between. It's for the greater good. We're all gonna have to deal with a bare minimum four years looking like douchebags to the rest of the world, so let's channel that anger into something productive.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:39 am

    Ned Braden wrote:Maybe I'm off base here, but I feel like your average Joe on the street will be more inclined to show up to the ballot booth in order to "keep Hillary out" than if Bernie is the nominee.
    Perhaps this is just due to my own status as a military service member and less importantly as a guy who was raised on and has an understanding for right wing savagery. The emails/classified documents stuff is something that even I, as a person who by and large supports Clinton's politics, take a bit of an offense to. These, "anybody else would be in Levenworth" posts you see from you republican cousin are actually not too far off base. At a minimum, if I'd have been caught doing stuff like that, I'd have lost my job (hey! That happened to me anyway, and for no damn reason!), gotten dishonorably discharged (this didn't), and been sent packing with no severance. It annoys me that once you've entered that bulletproof power zone, you seem to be immune to consequences. Is this enough to make me want to vote for Trump or Cruz or some asshole? Fuck no. Jesus no. But a lot of deluded average dudes who are still on the fence or who still link republicanism to "the party that thinks you should work hard and be rewarded, and/or the party that supports the 'heroes'" will be preconditioned to hate Clinton. Also, misogynists! I'd bet plenty of average voters in the US would show up just to keep an old lady out of the Oval Office. I wonder if this crowd would be counterbalanced by the "electing a woman would be commendable progressive politics, even if the candidate herself wasn't hugely progressive (the albrecht group?)" crowd.
    On the other hand, why should republicans unite against Sanders? Because "socialism." Honestly, this ain't the 50s and I feel like nobody gives a shit anymore? Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think "she's a criminal and a liberal" beats "he's a communist and a liberal" when it comes to rallying the opposition.

    Will vote for either nominee, of course.

    chrondog wrote:
    Ҩ wrote:But the fully erect DNC is going to make it all okay soon? They are currently shitting on the most excited and energetic part of their base with stupidly dismissive comments about 'free stuff.'

    Hillary is gonna get the nomination and have to bank on voters being so freaked out about Trump that they are going to vote for her, which probably isn't going to happen. Around this time next year we are going to be waking up in Trump's America everyone. I'm calling it right now.

    My only regret is that I didn't appreciate Obama's presidency as much as I maybe could have.

    wanna put $1000 on it? i'll take Hillary, you can have Trump. the field is a push.

    Ҩ wrote:I'm pretty convinced now. Trump eviscerated Bush by characterizing him as a member of a family oligarchy that was hamstrung by special interests, which by the way he isn't wrong about. Imagine the field day he would have with Clinton.

    Everyone assumes that because Trump says outlandish, insane shit on an hourly basis that the Clinton campaign is going to have such an easy time attacking him. Well then why isn't that tactic working right now?

    I wouldn't put money on Trump winning but it is definitely a real possibility. It's the perfect storm in many ways. Clinton is such a reviled figure for so many legitimate reasons that nobody can even get excited about voting for what would be the first woman President. Combine that with a disillusioned youth demographic after watching the electoral system and the press stack the deck against Bernie. Combine it with a disgruntled labor force that isn't only enamored by the machismo of Trump but realizes, and this is the scary part because they probably aren't even wrong, that his presumed policies of shitting on NAFTA and increasing trade tariffs would actually increase their job security.

    I'm not saying it is definite or that he is favored at this point. But I just think it is a very real possibility that nobody can actually confront because as soon as they do they shit their pants and pretend that Americans are going to bind together to stop the scary, authoritarian reality television, business mogul from making a mockery out of the electoral process and eventually the sanctity of the executive office. But I don't think I buy it anymore. We are fucked, guys.

    Nick wrote:I am looking forward to that first Trump vs. HRC debate.

    HRC will make a logical point about something and Trump will counter "Look, Hilary, you don't know what you're doing. I do and it will be great."

    Then 7 of the 9 knuckle heads on CNN will declare Trump was very presidential.

    Duff... wrote:Is Indiana the best place to go? How locked down R Wisconsin and Michigan right now?

    chrondog wrote:people haven't woken up to the seriousness of even considering someone as ill-tempered as Donald Trump to be president because the election cycle is so long and our media (and electorate, i suppose) is so frivolous.

    i truly still believe that Hillary will drop the hammer with "is Trump ready 4 the 3am phone call?" ads after Labor Day and Trump will be soundly defeated. but it's still hard to feel safe in that thinking.

    raj gibson wrote:
    C-poots wrote:Having been in the UK during the Brexit vote, I'm getting more and more fearful of a surprise win from Trump and seeing the sort of confidence evident in Raj's post only makes me more fearful.


    Well, I was speaking to Undo's pessimism even in the event that Trump loses (maybe unclear since I didn't quote his whole post). I am also still relatively confident he'll lose the general, and while I think the Brexit vote is a good reminder that people shouldn't take things lightly or underestimate the margin of error in polling, I think the American case is significantly and crucially different, not in small part because we have a much larger non-white population.

    African-American and Hispanic people don't have their heads in the ground. They know what the stakes R, and I think they will keep Trump out of the White House. But yeah, nothing 4 granted. Going to vote myself this afternoon.

    revisiting the greatest hits today in hopes that it would inspire me to do some more political writing. nope. bleak as fuck.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ned Braden on Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:13 am

    The dankest depths pale
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:20 pm

    I should have taken you up on that $1,000 bet. Fuck it.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:47 pm

    So the other day I went over to the post office to mail something out to a friend on his birthday. As I was walking this older man was walking out. He had on a red MAGA hat with little plastic American flags taped to the sides of it. I didn't even really react to it but as I was walking past him he looked at me and muttered something under his breath that was clearly directed at me. The only part that I heard was "boy."

    It took me a minute to actually process how offensive that was so I turned back around and confronted him about it in the parking lot. It started with a "uh... excuse me, but what did you just say to me as I was walking past there?" He copped a macho man Randy Savage attitude about me even asking. Anyways, things quickly devolved into me asking him to kindly "get out of my face, you fucking hillbilly."

    Then I went and dropped off my package.

    Do you think this guy was always this toxic to people in public? Or does one election result give him the confidence to start walking around, dressed like that, and muttering weird shit about people under his breath?
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by chrondog on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:52 pm

    it was really sad to read a lot of what i wrote and go back to that headspace where i was SO SO confident that Hillary would win. and i was. i was nervous yet confident on election day. i checked with my country registrar online again to make sure my ballot had been received. it felt like the dawn of new day in many ways. this was our chance to reject so many things that are fundamentally gross and wrong with society, embodied by Donald Trump.

    there is such a strong demarcation between the way i thought then and the way i think now. i feel like electing Hillary and having the country commit to another 4-8 years of competent, forward-thinking leadership, at least on some basic level, and locked in the social gains we've made as a country. now i feel like hate and ugliness and been unleashed and infected my brain. i know it's stupid because people haven't changed, they've just been exposed, but i feel the Trump malaise to this day.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by undo on Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:50 pm

    Every day for the past 4 months has been awful, I wake up every day feeling like there is no realistic goal or best-case scenario to come out of any of this.

    If Trump, Pence and everyone in his cabinet died right now, the playbook for how to de-legitimize democratic principles and re-brand fascism into something empowering and cool and absolutely deserving of debate isn't something we can just erase.

    I have super-dark thoughts towards all these people all the time, their worldview is incredibly contagious and there is no vaccine against the persuasive power of their ideas, every day the shame that was always attached to them melts away just a little more.
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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

    Post by Ҩ on Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:54 pm

    There was a thirty minute interval where everything got really dark on that night. I remember them announcing the early Duckworth win and seeing the predictable results announced on the East Coast and feeling really good. Then Midwestern counties started reporting their results and everything got really tense. For a couple of hours I truly thought I had finally lost my mind and that I was no longer properly processing reality. I spent most of the night sitting in a warm bath with the lights off pounding brews and trying not to hyperventilate.

    The following day was probably the single worst day of my entire life. Walking around campus with a pounding hangover and seeing professors hugging each other and fighting back tears, or overhearing black workers contemplating this new reality was so brutal.

    Undo was right, someday they will have a word for that feeling, but I still don't know what that word is yet.

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    Re: THE 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

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