Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

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    Ted Falconi
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    Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ted Falconi on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:37 pm

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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ҩ on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:55 am

    Nah
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ҩ on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:19 am

    This is an aggressively unfunny shtick though, for real. Decades of bad policies with bi-partisan support have had measurably negative, actually devastating, impacts on the American poor and working-class. This isn't a semantic argument to be hashed out on Twitter or message boards. Nor is it funny.

    The DNC Chair position isn't demonstrable of this, of course. From the reading I have done on Perez he seems excellent and carries some amazing endorsements (being compared to Frances Perkins by the AFL-CIO is just one example). It also seems that Ellison, Perez, and pretty much everyone running had very similar ideas about how to rebuild the party that focused especially on grassroots involvement. My worry is that a lot of grassroots movements and established labor unions that endorsed Ellison really early on are perhaps disillusioned further by this result. Not enough that they will actually leave the Party, but it might negatively impact future voter turnout or discourage youth and minority involvement more generally. Without this the goal of building a more vibrant, diverse, and winning coalition capable of transformative change remains unattainable.

    All of this has less to do with Perez himself than the narratives that were built up around this relatively insignificant election, almost all of which are admittedly unfair and overblown. I still worry about their consequences. Many will read this as the Obama-Clinton-Biden wing of the Party backdooring their desired candidate and they aren't completely wrong about this.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ted Falconi on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:32 am

    So why was he their preferred candidate, if, as you say, Perez is excellent and almost indistinguishable from Ellison?  Why did they need to backdoor him over Ellison?  And how do you explain the immediate deputizing of Ellison?

    Honest questions.  I don't understand what the fucking problem with this guy is, other than the tediously predictable reaction from certain types of people to anything remotely connected to "Hillary Clinton", "Barack Obama", etc.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ҩ on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:58 am

    It is mostly guilt by association, which I agree can be obnoxious. However, there is also a lot of pent up frustration among left leaning voters from the primaries.

    If you look at the Podesta e-mails with Perez (and yeah, I agree this is a bad source), what is particularly egregious is not that he endorses Clinton but how he frames his endorsement as the more pragmatic approach. There is nothing less pragmatic about center-left governance and the only reason that appears to be the case is because it has not been tested in this country at the federal level in decades, if not longer. So in that context, yeah, of course Sanders stump speech sounds like pipe dreams. That's the root of the problem though.

    Also, Obama undercut the importance of the DNC during his eight years in really significant and damaging ways, which matters when you look at the losses the Party has experienced in the Midwest at the State level. And if there is no ideological difference between Perez and Ellison and the latter had already gained support from grassroots movements, organized labor, and 'establishment' figures, why did Obama & co. feel a need to run a competing candidate?
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ҩ on Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:04 am

    Again, I'm not so convinced about the importance of this mostly symbolic election, but context and symbolism matters. There are more important things to focus attention on though and I've already wasted enough time on this.

    My real gripe is the title of this thread. It isn't the first time you've made this kind of lame joke. It's really cheap and I detest the appropriation of this brand of mocking conservatism. It's really stupid and unfunny. Sorry, but I refuse to back down on that point. Neg me straight to hell if you feel like it.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ҩ on Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:17 am

    Basically, the broader narrative should be that Democrats have favored an incremental approach to change that favors a top-down technocratic approach, which has cost them, and us, very dearly. Not just in this years President election either.

    But yeah, isn't it annoying when people on Twitter disagree with you and express their political views in predicable and sour ways. I can't imagine anything worse than that.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by chrondog on Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:25 am

    Ҩ wrote:This is an aggressively unfunny shtick though, for real. Decades of bad policies with bi-partisan support have had measurably negative, actually devastating, impacts on the American poor and working-class. This isn't a semantic argument to be hashed out on Twitter or message boards. Nor is it funny.

    Have they? Is the American working class really devastated? Were the bad policies bipartisan? Is America doing significantly worse than other industrial nations in providing means to its citizens? You're on some simplistic bullshit.

    And everything can still be funny. I'm pretty tired of this "Trump is President so humor is over" line of thinking too. I see your point about getting tired of specific, mocking, dismissive narratives. I find a lot of stuff that's trying to put a "light spin" on politics unfunny too. But to suggest that there is, all of a sudden, so much human suffering in our world that we can't make fun of things? Get some perspective.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ҩ on Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:55 am

    chrondog wrote:Have they? Is the American working class really devastated? Were the bad policies bipartisan? Is America doing significantly worse than other industrial nations in providing means to its citizens? You're on some simplistic bullshit.

    And everything can still be funny. I'm pretty tired of this "Trump is President so humor is over" line of thinking too. I see your point about getting tired of specific, mocking, dismissive narratives. I find a lot of stuff that's trying to put a "light spin" on politics unfunny too. But to suggest that there is, all of a sudden, so much human suffering in our world that we can't make fun of things? Get some perspective.
    I lack the means for a comparison to other (post-)industrial nations, and I guess it depends on your definition of devastated, but the short answer is yes they have. The easiest way to see this is the bloated prison population. You can draw a really clear line between de-industrialization, bi-partisan welfare reform, and the prison-industrial complex as a means to manage and discipline cheap labor.

    Also, I'm not arguing that we live in a post-humor world. My specific grievance is that it should not be so easy to punch down in this way, by just ignoring criticisms that are 'to the left' or perhaps foreign to your own conception of politics. I hope you all understand what I'm saying and I apologize if this comes off as aggressively moralizing. I'm more trying to defend the language that the left uses because I still think it has meaningful critical significance and should not be so easily dismissed as a tired cliché than I am trying to wag my finger at anyone on the board.

    If Chrono still thinks I am being a simpleton, I could expand on exactly what I mean later tonight with actual evidence. eh
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by chrondog on Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:41 pm

    Yeah I get you bro. You came out firing with some aggressive language that seemed to signal a shift in your thinking, but you're just digging in and defending stuff you've been about for awhile. It's cool. You're right that punching down isn't particularly interesting.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Duff... on Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 pm

    My frustration here is that the more liberal who tend to be younger here are still striving for this pure liberal vision and then threatening to shut off because it didn't quite happen, now. Maybe dems would do better if they moved left. Maybe that Obama and Clinton got branded socialists of all things means dems might as well move left because what's the difference. Or maybe the opposite is true. But we had a discussion and it broke a certain way, and now we have an aspiring tyrant to fight. If we stick together, we might win. If we act like a bunch of dems, freaking out like douchebags over policy ideas we can't even implement right now, the party and the country will just move more rightward.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ҩ on Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:23 pm

    Damn, shots fired!!

    To Duff's point, I think the opposite is happening. You are right that when this all becomes a contest over ideological purity it gets ugly and unproductive. Overall though, I'm encouraged by the amount of attention and engagement we have seen since January 20th. Not just in demonstrations and marches, but also in concerted efforts to rebuild the Party (and when necessary at local levels to move outside of it). I read all of this as a positive and I think the more contestation within the Party the better, because it means that people care and it highlights the diversity of interests within the Party (which I think might be used as an advantage if organized in the right way with some anchoring or unifying platform).
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by undo on Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:04 pm

    Duff... wrote:My frustration here is that the more liberal who tend to be younger here are still striving for this pure liberal vision and then threatening to shut off because it didn't quite happen, now.

    Still wondering if the Russians are actually this good at manipulating people or if these people are just that willing to play right into their hands? Like, did the Kremlin know how well the whole thing was going to work out?
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Duff... on Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:42 pm

    From what I can understand this is going way better than they could have ever dreamed, other than the rest of the government not allowing Trump to be as friendly to Russia as he seemingly wants to be.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ned Braden on Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:41 pm

    I was in DC walking around between some government agency interviews and I stopped to chat to some cute activist girl, and I chipped in 10 bucks. Now I get text messages from HRC (human rights campaign not Hillary Rodham Clinton).

    Text message wrote:If we want to protect our progress and fight for LGBTQ equality, we must STOP Gorsuch. Call your Senators and tell them to vote AGAINST him. Reply with your zip code to be connected. #txtSTOP2quit

    Who is Gorsuch? I haven't really been trying to stop him yet, and it may be too late.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Nick on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:07 pm

    He is Trump's Supreme Court nominee. By most accounts a despicable person.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Ned Braden on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:13 pm

    Well fuck that guy then!
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by Duff... on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:40 pm

    God, FUCK Human Rights Campaign.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by chrondog on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:43 pm

    People used to tell me that HRC was transphobic and I shouldn't support them because of that

    I know almost nothing about them except that bumper sticker with the yellow "=" on it
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by raj gibson on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:48 pm

    Nick wrote:He is Trump's Supreme Court nominee.  By most accounts a despicable person.
    Which accounts? He's a pretty standard mainstream conservative judge. He's decidedly conservative, but he seems like a best-case or near-best-case scenario for liberals. Outside of revenge for Garland I don't really get the rage. If Gorsuch is despicable, by that standard basically any republican would be.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by chrondog on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:39 pm

    raj gibson wrote:If Gorsuch is despicable, by that standard basically any republican would be.

    you said it Raj
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by chrondog on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:42 pm

    raj gibson wrote:Outside of revenge for Garland I don't really get the rage.

    I mean, is it not fairly easy to understand that rage? Republicans blocked a sitting president from even getting hearings on his Supreme Court nominee. As far as I'm concerned, the Democrats should party line vote AND filibuster against the Supreme Court nominee of every Republican president in perpetuity. As a voter, I would demand that course of action. Not that my "demands" mean much as a person with "fringe views" on the deep blue Left Coast.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by raj gibson on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:31 pm

    chrondog wrote:
    raj gibson wrote:Outside of revenge for Garland I don't really get the rage.

    I mean, is it not fairly easy to understand that rage? Republicans blocked a sitting president from even getting hearings on his Supreme Court nominee.

    Yes, but this was the inevitable end result of the increasing politicization of the nomination process — and if anything, the democrats have usually been at the forefront of the process, from Bork to Miguel Estrada to Alito. So while I dislike what the Republicans did, I can't get too angry about it (at least, not relative to many other subjects). Would Schumer or Reid have done the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot? It seems quite likely.

    As far as I'm concerned, the Democrats should party line vote AND filibuster against the Supreme Court nominee of every Republican president in perpetuity. As a voter, I would demand that course of action. Not that my "demands" mean much as a person with "fringe views" on the deep blue Left Coast.
    Maybe if this had any chance of working I would support it as a tactical maneuver, even if it was unseemly, but to do it just symbolically? I don't know, it doesn't sway me.

    It is quite possible that the Garland maneuver signaled the end of deference to presidents on Supreme Court nominees, and that in the future nominees will only be appointed when the president's party has the legislative might to push it through (as now). I hope that's not the case, as it would permanently diminish the Court (and consequently American democracy as a whole).
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by chrondog on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:41 pm

    raj gibson wrote:the Garland maneuver signaled the end of deference to presidents on Supreme Court nominees

    What else was it? It was totally nuclear in that respect. Your point is somewhat well taken that Democrats have been deeply involved in some of the politicization of the court, but you also have to consider the actions of the Bush Administration. The Harriet Miers attempt. The rhetoric about "compromise" for the court, then appointing hard-line righties twice. Sotomayor and Kagan got through, but the rhetoric around their nominations when they are both left-moderate and qualified was HIGHLY politicized. There is not a balance here. Republicans have consistently told people that they should be able to nominate whatever Scallia-esque hardliner they want and that Democrats should nominate moderates. The politics of obstruction have been ultimately successful for the right, Garland is the ultimate example of that. It's bad for the country and Republicans haven't balked once while doing it for a decade. It's time to shove it in their fucking faces.

    raj gibson wrote:Would Schumer or Reid have done the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot? It seems quite likely.

    It really doesn't. They chose not to filibuster Alito. They have rarely taken the hard line on these parliamentary moves. Reid became more of a hardass at the end of the Obama Administration, but with good reason. The Senate Republicans are huge assholes.

    Apologies if the "swearing" makes my points seem less sincere or reasonable, but these are some of the most impactful political decisions that are being made in our lifetime. No quarter.
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    Re: Butthurt BernieBros Safespace and Snowflake Refuge

    Post by undo on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:55 pm

    chrondog wrote:I mean, is it not fairly easy to understand that rage? Republicans blocked a sitting president from even getting hearings on his Supreme Court nominee.
    I feel like we had a very fair chance to call bullshit on this when it was going down, like we should have and was definitely within our legal and moral rights to do so, but we played along with them because we were so sure that we were going to win in November. (And the tantalizing prize of agreeing to their stupid gamble, I've always imagined but never heard stated, was the prospect of being able to go ahead and nominate someone else besides Garland even further to the left, who Republicans would have to approve, in theory).

    It was a bullshit game we never should have played but once we agreed to it -- and we definitely did -- it's really hard to act like we were cheated out of it over a whole year later.

    And yes, I'm totally aware that that exact line of thinking is exactly what they want us to feel right now. Go ahead and neg me, I deserve it.

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