Nope. Another example of why these people are DOA for me. Let Trump win another term before these frauds get my vote.
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The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Nick- anorexic Skeletor
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- Post n°951
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Would have been great to see one of these shitty Democratic presidential candidates step up and defend Omar. Something as small as, “Now before we start condemning her and demanding apologies let’s talk about this...”
Nope. Another example of why these people are DOA for me. Let Trump win another term before these frauds get my vote.
Nope. Another example of why these people are DOA for me. Let Trump win another term before these frauds get my vote.
undo- Internet's Busiest Music Nerd
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- Post n°952
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Are we really gonna do this again
Giant Meteor for president 2020 lol, but her emails 2.0
Giant Meteor for president 2020 lol, but her emails 2.0
chrondog- Mystery Thread Deleter
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- Post n°953
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
It's pretty disingenuous to compare "her emails" to what we're talking about here at all. The Left never had a problem with "her emails". Hillary has always been an enemy of the Left for her foreign policy, health care "pragmatism", marketized environmental policy, and poll-tested social positions.
You're never going to catch me downplaying the differences between Democrats and Republicans, but as things are shaking out right now, the gulf between the two parties is perhaps smaller than the gulf between Democrats and the Left.
The argument some people will make is that if Republicans rack up wins and engender backlash, Single Payer might be coming down the pike in 10 years. If we keep passing minor, incremental health care laws, it could take 20 years to get to a Single Payer system.
My argument will always be that I don't think we should let human beings suffer on the margins (minorities, immigrants, children in cages, trans people, drug users, being left behind by this administration) for some theoretical calculus around long-term policy objectives. However, I think it will be a somewhat popular position among people who aren't as impacted by this president because they're insulated by (identity and economic) privilege.
You're never going to catch me downplaying the differences between Democrats and Republicans, but as things are shaking out right now, the gulf between the two parties is perhaps smaller than the gulf between Democrats and the Left.
The argument some people will make is that if Republicans rack up wins and engender backlash, Single Payer might be coming down the pike in 10 years. If we keep passing minor, incremental health care laws, it could take 20 years to get to a Single Payer system.
My argument will always be that I don't think we should let human beings suffer on the margins (minorities, immigrants, children in cages, trans people, drug users, being left behind by this administration) for some theoretical calculus around long-term policy objectives. However, I think it will be a somewhat popular position among people who aren't as impacted by this president because they're insulated by (identity and economic) privilege.
techno raj- Tub of Lemon Chobani
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- Post n°954
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Nick wrote:Would have been great to see one of these shitty Democratic presidential candidates step up and defend Omar. Something as small as, “Now before we start condemning her and demanding apologies let’s talk about this...”
Nope. Another example of why these people are DOA for me. Let Trump win another term before these frauds get my vote.
Not a surprising position from a person who uses "jew" as a verb to mean cheating on money.
Nick- anorexic Skeletor
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- Post n°955
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
techno raj wrote:Nick wrote:Would have been great to see one of these shitty Democratic presidential candidates step up and defend Omar. Something as small as, “Now before we start condemning her and demanding apologies let’s talk about this...”
Nope. Another example of why these people are DOA for me. Let Trump win another term before these frauds get my vote.
Not a surprising position from a person who uses "jew" as a verb to mean cheating on money.
Not sure I’m following you on this response, Raj.
techno raj- Tub of Lemon Chobani
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- Post n°956
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
I'm not surprised someone who has used a racial trope about Jews would be disappointed other democrats don't defend someone accused of doing something similar.
Nick- anorexic Skeletor
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- Post n°957
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
You’ll have to refresh my memory on when I’ve used that trope.
techno raj- Tub of Lemon Chobani
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- Post n°958
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Nick wrote:I accidentally opened a letter intended for my new neighbor last night. It was from a student loan debt collector and it shows past due amounts going back to '05.
I freaked at first because I thought it was my dad Jewing me out of paying this again until I saw the name.
Nick- anorexic Skeletor
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- Post n°959
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
While that was a poor choice of phrasing on my part and deeply regret it I maintain Omar did nothing wrong.
chrondog- Mystery Thread Deleter
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- Post n°960
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
This is some real life Washington shit going down on the board!!
Of course, as the future leaders of this country, WrestlingPun and I already successfully gave the best takes possible on this controversy on the last page.
Of course, as the future leaders of this country, WrestlingPun and I already successfully gave the best takes possible on this controversy on the last page.
undo- Internet's Busiest Music Nerd
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- Post n°961
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
What if they're letting Omar get pummeled in order to tamp down enthusiasm of the new class of Dem reps/get them to fall in line?
That's kind of paranoid to assume? Or not?
That's kind of paranoid to assume? Or not?
chrondog- Mystery Thread Deleter
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- Post n°962
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
All of the reporting coming out of the Dem caucus suggests that they want to do that, so it would be an added bonus for them surely.
But the Dems are also totally on board with the Israel consensus as well and legitimately don't want to criticize or upset Israel supporters at all. Many of them are criticizing her because they believe it is right to do so.
Dems also made a big deal about the Soros/Bloomberg/Steyer rumor-mongering around the "border caravan" which people are drawing a parallel to here. I think it's a mega false equivalency, as that involved circulating more explicitly racist imagery on social media rather than a tossed off tweet which people willfully took way to far to advance their own agenda. Also, it references individuals rather than groups.
It's so idiotic the way that all the articles have been referring to AIPIC as a "Jewish group". It's quite literally a pro-Israel political action group that includes many non-Jewish people. The reality is that uncritical water carriers for the status quo will call AIPIC a Jewish group when it suits their narrative about anti-semitism.
The uncritical defenders of Israel are the ones who reject a nuanced debate because we have a "special relationship" with Israel. How can there be a debate when the literal platform of both parties is "we support Israel near unconditionally"?
But the Dems are also totally on board with the Israel consensus as well and legitimately don't want to criticize or upset Israel supporters at all. Many of them are criticizing her because they believe it is right to do so.
Dems also made a big deal about the Soros/Bloomberg/Steyer rumor-mongering around the "border caravan" which people are drawing a parallel to here. I think it's a mega false equivalency, as that involved circulating more explicitly racist imagery on social media rather than a tossed off tweet which people willfully took way to far to advance their own agenda. Also, it references individuals rather than groups.
It's so idiotic the way that all the articles have been referring to AIPIC as a "Jewish group". It's quite literally a pro-Israel political action group that includes many non-Jewish people. The reality is that uncritical water carriers for the status quo will call AIPIC a Jewish group when it suits their narrative about anti-semitism.
The uncritical defenders of Israel are the ones who reject a nuanced debate because we have a "special relationship" with Israel. How can there be a debate when the literal platform of both parties is "we support Israel near unconditionally"?
techno raj- Tub of Lemon Chobani
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- Post n°963
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Even if Omar had the purest of intentions, her message was neither nuanced nor well-designed to spark debate.
I'm surprised that people expect other Dems to burn political capital defending what was even in the most charitable light a "tossed off" argument.
I'm surprised that people expect other Dems to burn political capital defending what was even in the most charitable light a "tossed off" argument.
reuben- President Bannon
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- Post n°964
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
The "Similar Topics" bar delivers in this thread.
undo- Internet's Busiest Music Nerd
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- Post n°965
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
reuben wrote:The "Similar Topics" bar delivers in this thread.
I swear this one was a mainstay down here since the very beginning but has suddenly disappeared
http://publishedauthors.forumotion.com/t6764-donald-trump-is-a-buffoon
WP64- Mystery Thread Deleter
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- Post n°966
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
So the Democrats have effectively laid the groundwork for Trump to demand that Ilhan Omar resign from Congress. What an effective use of political capital this has been though!
chrondog- Mystery Thread Deleter
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- Post n°967
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
techno raj wrote:Even if Omar had the purest of intentions, her message was neither nuanced nor well-designed to spark debate.
I'm surprised that people expect other Dems to burn political capital defending what was even in the most charitable light a "tossed off" argument.
It was fucking Twitter bro. Lots of unnuanced shit goes tossed around there, argued about, and left for dead. But because this is about Israel and it is a lobby that is extremely smart and well organized, it got blown up into some ridiculous shit. If it was another issue it would not have reached this level. If you substitute NRA for AIPIC, what she said is not controversial in the slightest.
The notion that she was trafficking in Jewish stereotypes and therefore was anti-semitic is purely a definitional creation by said lobby and people who support it. That criticism of the pro-Israel lobby, or even a reductionist critique that focused on money in politics rather than a century of shared political destiny, is anti-semitic stands up to no logical scrutiny. It can only be true if it is tautologically true, which is what the lobby has attempted to construct over the last 10 years.
I don't think anyone expects the "Dems to burn political capital" on something like this, we're rejecting the very "The Party Decides" notion of political capital in the first place when you could simply be intellectually honest instead. Is this flashpoint really going to move the needle for voters or donors in a major way? If it is, it actually makes Omar's point even more forcefully. If it's not, why are Dems even paying it credence? Just say "I don't agree with the congresswoman's critique and that's okay."
Watching the Dems throw one of their own into the pit to be savaged by bad faith Republicans over some intellectually dishonest argument isn't unexpected, just disheartening and sad. And it will happen again next week.
Nick- anorexic Skeletor
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- Post n°968
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Congresswoman Omar going after Elliott Abrams in a hearing today over US atrocities in Central America.
Ned Braden- Yawn Yeller
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- Post n°969
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Ugh, I swear if I see any more “communism!” “Gulag!” “Venezuela!” Posts ima up and not do anything about it... but still be disappointed by the human race. Progressives have apparently paved the way for fascists to be loud and convince people to vote for evil. Good luck humanity.
chrondog- Mystery Thread Deleter
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- Post n°970
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Venezuela is a fantastic example of shitty socialism at work. The government seized much of the means of production and did fuck all with it. They turned oil revenues into nonsense dividends instead of infrastructure spending. They botched land reform and created tons of unproductive agricultural land. They postured in the foreign policy arena for domestic political points instead of enacting popular programs at home. Fuck the Venezuelan government. The people need sustenance, not ideology.
Ned Braden- Yawn Yeller
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- Post n°971
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
“But AOC and her like = Venezuela!!!”
Ugh... yeah. We’re on the same page here.
Ugh... yeah. We’re on the same page here.
chrondog- Mystery Thread Deleter
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- Post n°972
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
Right wingers don't understand that their hypercapitalist, authoritarian nonsense is being perfected in China. I can't figure out why some of them hate the place so much. That's what they want for America.
Duff...- Current Bass Player of UFO
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Sunny.
- Post n°973
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
chrondog wrote:Duff... wrote:chrondog wrote:The conflation of anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel which began under Hillary's State Department
hmmmm....
But yes, this whole thing is ridiculous.
It's not anti-Hillary revisionism (which is the subtext of your hmmmm...).
Hillary was super in bed with the Israel lobby and they wrote her a resolution redefining anti-semitism that was codified by her State Department. The Clintons have never ever ever been progressive on Israel and it was a huge criticism I leveled at her during the campaign. This issue has been of particular interest to me for almost 10 years.
Here it is: https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm
It was then codified by international bodies in 2016: https://www.state.gov/s/rga/resources/267538.htm
It's extremely problematic because it defines anti-semitism very loosely as any number of criticisms of Israel or Israeli influence. So many of these phrases are open to huge interpretation:
"allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective"
"Blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions"
"denying Israel the right to exist"
In the case of Omar, they seize on "Making...stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective--especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government, or other societal institutions."
In the case of Omar, it didn't matter that she specifically references Israel or pro-Israel groups. Because of the systematic attempt to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, making a comment about pro-Israel money in politics is AUTOMATICALLY about Jews, despite the fact that the Israel lobby is made up for Evangelical Christians and foreign policy hawks as well.
The resolution is so mealy and imprecise because it was designed to invite these types of controversies. That any remark critical of Israel, AIPIC, or the foreign policy consensus in the Middle East instantly devolves into race-baiting serves the interests of the lobby. We can't have a conversation about the policy.
The campus Hillel at my college was pushing this idea back in 2009-10 and I used to get into arguments with other students about it all the time. Part of their argument (and the argument of the State Department's resolution) is that we apply an unfair "double standard" to Israel and don't condemn violence by Palestinians. So much to say about that:
1. Power is asymmetrical and there will ALWAYS be different standards applied to different nations, that doesn't make it ethnic hate.
2. The overwhelming majority of people condemn Palestinian violence, but that doesn't matter to bad faith pro-Israel partisans because they don't actually care about that, only advancing their own interests (which, as an interest group, more power to em I guess).
3. The United States is the most violent nation-state in history and applying double standards about human rights issues is our bread and butter. Anything Israel is doing, we've done worse. If the US can't apply double standards, we can't have a foreign policy critical of anything (and maybe that's the most fair, honestly).
4. We can have whatever fucking standard we want for Israel because we give them well over $3 billion in military aid annually
This is why the Left needs to take on the Democratic Party every single day.
I didn't read any of this, I'm just pretty sure that conflation predates Clinton's time as Secretary of State.
WP64 wrote:So the Democrats have effectively laid the groundwork for Trump to demand that Ilhan Omar resign from Congress.
I'm.... not too concerned about that.
The "SOCIALISM=VENEZWAYLA" thing has been batted around a while now and I admit that I don't watch a lot of news I can't say I've ever heard the very obvious retorts that a) Canada and basically all of Europe are also socialist countries that, while not without problems, seem to be mostly doing OK on the economics and democracy fronts*, b) the US has plenty of socialist programs we take for granted now and have had them for nearly a century, and we, while not without problems, seem to be mostly doing OK on the economics and democracy fronts*, and c) the choice isn't really between being capitalism and socialism, it's about how capitalist vs. how socialist we want to be.
undo- Internet's Busiest Music Nerd
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- Post n°974
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
I stopped hearing "you want to be socialist like Venezuela?" around the same time this came out, maybe just a coincidence who knows
Hearing it as much, I should say.
jesus jones- Tub of Lemon Chobani
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- Post n°975
Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency
i think we can all agree that everything is, and i can't stress this enough, incredibly fucking stupid
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