Uptick in Police Violence

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    Post by WP64 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:02 am

    This country is so fucked. I can't tell what I think about any of this right now. Obviously I have complete solidarity with all of the protesters right now, especially in Minneapolis. I don't have much patience for the liberal whinging about property damage and looting of Target.

    I just wish the national coverage of this was better. I was watching CNN last night and Don Lemon was just riffing about the state of the country while pleading for celebrities to support young protestors and use their platform for good. He was literally like "where is Tyler Perry right now?" That shit is depressing. I don't think Don Lemon is an asshole or anything but the fact that he cannot see beyond his circle of elite celebrity friends and thinks of them as the agents of history and political change in this country is deeply problematic and frustrating.

    I really, really want to see a new generation of anti-systemic, young black leadership emerge out of these protests. The last generation of black leadership was all gunned down or uncomfortably subsumed into the Democratic Party. Apparently a lot of the leaders of the Ferguson protests were later found gunned down in their cars and apartments as well, which is something that never got national coverage or attention. It would just be really nice to have a media platform that was not so obsessed with the production of spectacle (and the maintenance of the political status quo) and could actually serve as a platform for organic intellectuals and activists to make their case to the country.
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    Post by WP64 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:06 am

    All this shit is so depressing though. We keep dealing with the same issues over and over in this country and nothing ever fucking changes. I am so goddamn frustrated. Nobody can lecture these kids about the need to protest "the right way" because every time that shit was tried it was turned into a fucking debate about etiquette and respecting the flag or whatever. So give me a fucking break. This country is broken in a million ways and everyone knows it. And if you belong to a historically disenfranchised group in this country, you have to deal with that reality everyday of your fucking life. And it sucks.

    I am always an optimist and the fact that people actually give a shit and are out there protesting really is great. I am glad people care. But they should not have to do this shit, especially not during a global pandemic. And I just feel really, really bad that we keep failing so badly in this country.
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    Post by Escobar Season on Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:58 pm

    Marty wrote:True, worse in the past but the numbers.

    I don’t recall cops putting 15 bullets in somebody, like they do now for stuff like holding a phone, in the 90s, though.

    the bruce springsteen song '41 shots' is about the amadou diallo case, from 1999

    theres also about a million rap songs from the 80s and 90s + the revolts after the rodney king beating was caught on tape, but thats how tamped down media was in that era ... ppl just represented the police's perspective. Now you log onto twitter and you can see what's actually happening uncensored


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    Post by WP64 on Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:44 pm

    Some of the events of the last few days are truly unbelievable. The Minneapolis City Council votes, with a veto-proof supermajority (!!), to fully disband the city's police department and establish alternative forms of community-led public safety. Meanwhile in New York City hundreds of cops are handing in their badges and retiring in protest over perceived mistreatment.

    As exciting as the Minneapolis decision is, I think there are two unanswered problems that need to be addressed. First, a move to defund/abolish police departments will inevitably lead to the growth of privatized police and security forces. The model here is the University of Chicago, which privately finances its own campus police. There is a lot of tension between those private forces and the Hyde Park community. As we know, privatization leads to a lack of democratic oversight and control, which is really frightening in this case. Of course these private financiers are not going to be able to militarize their police forces in the same way as the United States government due to the normal budgetary constraints of non-State entities, so that is something to celebrate. Still, I worry about how a city like Los Angeles is going to look in the near-future. It is probably going to start to resemble Latin American cities, where the extreme levels of inequality are maintained and reinforced through violent repression of all forms of social unrest. It isn't unreasonable to think that private police forces will become the norm in places like Calabasas and Beverly Hills. The urban planning of are cities are already designed to maintain a form of class/racial apartheid, including the city of Chicago.

    And second, it is almost inevitable that we are going to see an increasing presence of well-trained ex-cops in the right wing militia movements in this country. Social scientists have already shown that the networks of far right militarism in this country are primarily led by networks of aggrieved Vietnam veterans and they are a direct consequence of American imperial policy. It seems really dramatic to use the example of de-Baathification in post-Saddam Iraq, but that is the danger here. These cops are well organized, they possess strong labor organizations and solidarity, they have access to insane amounts of weapons, and have a base of operations that effectively extends the entire country. All of that is really, really scary. I still shudder when I think about how the NYPD turned their back on Bill De Blasio when he came to express his condolences over the killing of a police officer in 2017. We don't talk nearly enough about the implications of this stuff in the United States because it is too threatening and we always prefer to not address our problems.

    All of this to say, I am so encouraged by the progress that is being made by protestors and organizers throughout the United States. They have truly exceeded even my wildest of expectations and have totally transformed my conception of what is politically feasible. It literally feels like new horizons for real emancipatory change are opening up everyday in this country. But it obviously is not a moment for triumphalism and I think there are really frightening conditions being created for Fascistic counter-movements that seek to violently reassert "social control."
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    Post by Ned Braden on Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:18 pm

    Turning down two very tough to get jobs in law enforcement turned out to be the best move I ever made in my professional career.
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    Post by WP64 on Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:24 am

    I have a lot of conflicting takes on these ongoing protests but before I bore anyone here with my thoughts, I am curious what other boards are thinking right now. I just can't tell where this is going. I have noticed a real shift in tone over these last couple of weeks. What are you guys thinking?
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    Post by Nick on Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:11 am

    I’m surprised but encouraged at how long they’ve lasted as well as the size of the protests. But I still think it will lead to nothing substantial. The power and corruption of police departments nationwide runs so deep and has for so long that it is identical to murder weapon laws. Implementing change makes sense but as soon as politicians start discussing it publicly it’ll get shutdown real quick one way or another.
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    Post by WP64 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:21 am

    I agree with all of that.

    But I also just get a little frustrated sometimes with millennial politics. I literally cannot go on my own social media accounts anymore because I literally always feel like I am being lectured by own peers. It's really strange and alienating. There is a generational divide because young people are basically locked out of the housing/property market, which is the only way middle-class Americans were able to establish any kind of real material wealth in the post-war period. People like my parents have a stake in the maintenance of bourgeois liberal property rights because they have equity tied up in their suburban home and their retirement accounts are financialized assets through 401(k) plans. Very few of my peers are comfortable acknowledging this basic fact but they are unlikely to earn enough through their own labor to ever equal the material wealth accumulated by their own parents, which makes them downwardly mobile and dependent upon inheritance and "gifts" to ever establish themselves amongst the propertied middle classes. None of that is going away anytime soon because our economy is totally broken and so my generation is way more receptive to the idea of State intervention and public ownership. We are being made into Bernie bros. The national media doesn't talk enough about this.

    At the same time, the cultural/identity politics of my peers are truly nauseating. People do not seem to understand the difference between discursive "violence" and actual physical violence and murder. They seem to think that racism is some kind of psycho-pathology and that "whiteness" needs to be overcome through self-reflection. It is really encouraging when I see people like John Oliver use a historical framing to talk about contemporary policing. You cannot talk about State violence directed at black people without contextualizing it within the history of slavery, segregation/apartheid, lynching. To put it very bluntly and crudely: the master's whip IS the klansman's noose IS the cop's pistol. People need to understand that. Abolition isn't a thought experiment, it is a politics of emancipation for all people.
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    Post by WP64 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:28 am

    I just get very frustrated sometimes and it feels like everything is getting hijacked by liberal apologists. But I just try to remind myself that it took me a really, really long time to make these connections. I feel as though I am only just now starting to understand how power actually operates within modern societies, which has been really exciting for me. All of these protests have been really intellectually stimulating and they have helped me to mature politically (although that should not be the objective of a mass movement). So hopefully other people are making these connections as well. In fact, it is entirely possible that I am actually just catching up to other people, which would be wonderful.
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    Post by jesus jones on Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:54 pm

    if anyone is curious, the police violence here in richmond has been off the fucking charts. yesterday, the third police chief in a year resigned and the cops went absolutely fucking wild on protesters at the robert e. lee monument. the small monument park has been renamed "marcus-david peters circle" in honor of a Black man who was killed by police a couple years ago while having a clear mental health episode. he was also nude. no one was charged or fired for his killing. (https://www.richmond.com/news/local/crime/update-prosecutor-says-deadly-police-shooting-of-marcus-david-peters-was-justifiable-homicide-report-shows/article_2881439b-5c91-5edb-982e-edad8671b5b4.html)

    mayor stoney just announced that the deputy chief of the charlotte-mecklenburg PD will be our new chief. no community input.
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    Post by undo on Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:04 pm



    You can call the cops on someone because they "look sketchy."

    That's not even the problem here but it's been bothering me a lot.

    ACAB
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    Post by jesus jones on Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:19 pm

    as it turns out, charlotte-mecklenburg pd was served with a restraining order because they’re too brutal. very cool city i live in
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    Post by undo on Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:25 pm

    undo wrote:ACAB

    I shouldn't say this unless I'm 100% ready to commit to it.

    Yeah there are "good cops" but most would-be good cops are corrupted and conditioned by their position and their peers to despise and distrust the citizens they're supposed to serve... some more than others!

    I work with a cop and he seems to be a "good guy" (though the fact that I'm interacting with him during the 8 hours a week that he's not a cop might have something to do with that). Or maybe I'm just too much of a coward to tell him how much he sucks right to his face. Who knows!
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    Post by John Boy Walton on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:45 pm

    undo wrote:
    undo wrote:ACAB

    I shouldn't say this unless I'm 100% ready to commit to it.

    Yeah there are "good cops" but most would-be good cops are corrupted and conditioned by their position and their peers to despise and distrust the citizens they're supposed to serve... some more than others!

    I work with a cop and he seems to be a "good guy" (though the fact that I'm interacting with him during the 8 hours a week that he's not a cop might have something to do with that).  Or maybe I'm just too much of a coward to tell him how much he sucks right to his face. Who knows!

    You work with a cop? Hmm. What the hell could that be? I'm intrigued, I'll have to think about it. It's not telemarketing?:

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    Post by John Boy Walton on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:52 pm

    WP64 wrote:This country is so fucked. I can't tell what I think about any of this right now. Obviously I have complete solidarity with all of the protesters right now, especially in Minneapolis. I don't have much patience for the liberal whinging about property damage and looting of Target.

    I just wish the national coverage of this was better. I was watching CNN last night and Don Lemon was just riffing about the state of the country while pleading for celebrities to support young protestors and use their platform for good. He was literally like "where is Tyler Perry right now?" That shit is depressing. I don't think Don Lemon is an asshole or anything but the fact that he cannot see beyond his circle of elite celebrity friends and thinks of them as the agents of history and political change in this country is deeply problematic and frustrating.

    I really, really want to see a new generation of anti-systemic, young black leadership emerge out of these protests. The last generation of black leadership was all gunned down or uncomfortably subsumed into the Democratic Party. Apparently a lot of the leaders of the Ferguson protests were later found gunned down in their cars and apartments as well, which is something that never got national coverage or attention. It would just be really nice to have a media platform that was not so obsessed with the production of spectacle (and the maintenance of the political status quo) and could actually serve as a platform for organic intellectuals and activists to make their case to the country.

    Do you agree that the nuclear family should be abolished? while the partiarchy-system is dismantled, and that the community is responsible to raise families?

    I just read the BLM creed today and that's what they said they wanted.
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    Post by Michael K. on Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:58 pm

    undo wrote:
    undo wrote:ACAB

    I shouldn't say this unless I'm 100% ready to commit to it.

    Yeah there are "good cops" but most would-be good cops are corrupted and conditioned by their position and their peers to despise and distrust the citizens they're supposed to serve... some more than others!

    I work with a cop and he seems to be a "good guy" (though the fact that I'm interacting with him during the 8 hours a week that he's not a cop might have something to do with that).  Or maybe I'm just too much of a coward to tell him how much he sucks right to his face. Who knows!

    I think ACAB and defunding the police have very little to do with individual police being good or bad. There are definitely good people who are police. And even people who do good work and act as good people while policing. But the idea, as I see it, behind ACAB is that the police are a task force beholden to the service of whomever is compelling them to a task. And the power structure in our country is driven by capital and inherently unfair to those that don't have capital to protect, which is a disproportionately minority slice of the populace. ACAB, then, because policing in an inherently unfair and unjust system can only be achieved through unjust and unfair action, a priori. So, imo, defund the motherfucking police because there's no amount of reform that can do any good when the foundation is morally decrepit.
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    Post by WP64 on Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:19 pm

    That's exactly right.
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    Post by John Boy Walton on Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:00 pm

    Michael K. wrote:
    undo wrote:
    undo wrote:ACAB

    I shouldn't say this unless I'm 100% ready to commit to it.

    Yeah there are "good cops" but most would-be good cops are corrupted and conditioned by their position and their peers to despise and distrust the citizens they're supposed to serve... some more than others!

    I work with a cop and he seems to be a "good guy" (though the fact that I'm interacting with him during the 8 hours a week that he's not a cop might have something to do with that).  Or maybe I'm just too much of a coward to tell him how much he sucks right to his face. Who knows!

    defund the motherfucking police because there's no amount of reform that can do any good when the foundation is morally decrepit.  

    I listen to WVON every time I am in the car, so I have a finger on the pulse of the black community in Chicago, and they definitely want more policing. When they empty the prisons and remove bail, the communities really suffer. The community, this week on WVON, besides a radical few: soundly reject what you posit here.

    You are seeing this through some kind of academic bubble, but the people who are in these communities don't agree. The radical minority is once again hijacking the normal majority in America here.
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    Post by jesus jones on Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:49 pm

    are you fucking serious with that post
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    Post by Michael K. on Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:31 pm

    John Boy Walton wrote:
    Michael K. wrote:
    undo wrote:
    undo wrote:ACAB

    I shouldn't say this unless I'm 100% ready to commit to it.

    Yeah there are "good cops" but most would-be good cops are corrupted and conditioned by their position and their peers to despise and distrust the citizens they're supposed to serve... some more than others!

    I work with a cop and he seems to be a "good guy" (though the fact that I'm interacting with him during the 8 hours a week that he's not a cop might have something to do with that).  Or maybe I'm just too much of a coward to tell him how much he sucks right to his face. Who knows!

    defund the motherfucking police because there's no amount of reform that can do any good when the foundation is morally decrepit.  

    I listen to WVON every time I am in the car, so I have a finger on the pulse of the black community in Chicago, and they definitely want more policing. When they empty the prisons and remove bail, the communities really suffer. The community, this week on WVON, besides a radical few: soundly reject what you posit here.


    You are seeing this through some kind of academic bubble, but the people who are in these communities don't agree. The radical minority is once again hijacking the normal majority in America here.

    More policing in certain areas doesn't preclude defunding the police in general, but I can't imagine black communities want more of the same kind of policing that typically happens in black neighborhoods. Maybe some do - of course some do; people have all kinds of opinions - but I can't imagine it'd lead to a better life and more opportunity. We've been trying this same bullshit for years - will MORE of this bullshit fix the problems that SOME of this bullshit created? If you believe that, I'll take my academic bubble. Seems better than a bubble made of ignorance and sheltered by oppression.

    My point is that the toolkit we're working with as a society is severely limited right now. Utopia's an impossible dream, but you can't build anything resembling it if you can't dream about it, and you can't begin to dream about it if >90% of that tool kit is made up of military-grade weapons and riot gear. My position proffers hope. What's yours do, Marty?
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    Post by BGwaves on Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:48 pm

    Hey JBW, you votin Kanye?
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    Post by John Boy Walton on Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:47 am

    BGwaves wrote:Hey JBW, you votin Kanye?

    If Kanye was on the ballot he would definitely get my vote. 100% serious.
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    Post by John Boy Walton on Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:54 am

    jesus jones wrote:are you fucking serious with that post

    100%. I just listened the other day and caller after caller were going off about the violence. You have to understand, it's one thing to actually LIVE in that community, and another thing to read academic papers on the subject and posit. I read a quote once from Tupac in the 90s, and it was something like "white people think we like living in the hood, but we don't want a killer living next door to us any more than white people do". That always stuck with me.

    I regularly study and follow African American sites, news and radio. I don't know if defunding is the answer, and I certainly know that defunding often means "moving around resources", so I can get behind that! I am 100% behind the de-militarization of the Police, and I know that 50 schools were closed in Chicago, I realize there are no more mental health centers...

    Ponder this, when Rahm was mayor: Englewood had no HS for two years? Stop and think about that. Now, imagine Homewood Flossmoor going without a HS for two years. Now, ponder this: if any kid wants to go to school, at all (talking basic HS in Amurica): they have to travel through gangland neighborhoods and risk their lives every day. Now tell me again that these kids graduate at 50%?

    So, yeah, man it's bullshit but I know what I'm talking about.
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    Post by John Boy Walton on Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:00 pm

    Michael K. wrote:
    John Boy Walton wrote:
    Michael K. wrote:
    undo wrote:
    undo wrote:ACAB

    I shouldn't say this unless I'm 100% ready to commit to it.

    Yeah there are "good cops" but most would-be good cops are corrupted and conditioned by their position and their peers to despise and distrust the citizens they're supposed to serve... some more than others!

    I work with a cop and he seems to be a "good guy" (though the fact that I'm interacting with him during the 8 hours a week that he's not a cop might have something to do with that).  Or maybe I'm just too much of a coward to tell him how much he sucks right to his face. Who knows!

    defund the motherfucking police because there's no amount of reform that can do any good when the foundation is morally decrepit.  

    I listen to WVON every time I am in the car, so I have a finger on the pulse of the black community in Chicago, and they definitely want more policing. When they empty the prisons and remove bail, the communities really suffer. The community, this week on WVON, besides a radical few: soundly reject what you posit here.


    You are seeing this through some kind of academic bubble, but the people who are in these communities don't agree. The radical minority is once again hijacking the normal majority in America here.

    More policing in certain areas doesn't preclude defunding the police in general, but I can't imagine black communities want more of the same kind of policing that typically happens in black neighborhoods. Maybe some do - of course some do; people have all kinds of opinions - but I can't imagine it'd lead to a better life and more opportunity. We've been trying this same bullshit for years - will MORE of this bullshit fix the problems that SOME of this bullshit created? If you believe that, I'll take my academic bubble. Seems better than a bubble made of ignorance and sheltered by oppression.

    My point is that the toolkit we're working with as a society is severely limited right now. Utopia's an impossible dream, but you can't build anything resembling it if you can't dream about it, and you can't begin to dream about it if >90% of that tool kit is made up of military-grade weapons and riot gear. My position proffers hope. What's yours do, Marty?

    I agree with you 1000%. I lived in the ghetto for a long time, and on the edge of it for a long time. I want change.

    But, families and kids are getting shot up on a regular basis and when I was in HS we had awesome black schools all across the South side. So, you tell me how to fix it? I'm with you. What happened to destroy all these schools and communties? What is your opinion on that?
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    Post by Duff... on Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:08 pm

    sigh. I don't think you'd find much support from Tupac Shakur on your position.

    "Defund/Abolish the Police" is absolutely coming from the communities. And maybe the confusion is that very few people are talking about getting rid of all police, tomorrow. And none of them are saying "yeah, just let crime run rampant, who cares, fuck the police." It's about changing perspective on the issues facing black and hispanic communities from being primarily a police problem. It's about how a corrupt and largely unchecked police culture has led many in these communities to not trust the police, the government, society. It's about how crime is a symptom of generations of poverty, racism, segregation, lack of opportunity, lack of health care (including mental health), etc., and how our resources will be better spent addressing those things instead of siccing the police on any black male between 12 and 30 walking down the street.

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