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    The Donald J. Trump Presidency

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    Post by Duff... Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:43 pm

    WP64 wrote:
    masterminded

    I don't think anyone actually thought this?

    WP64 wrote:
    His stupid fucking kid probably did something illegal and he obviously surrounded himself with absolute scum of the earth (Manafort, Cohen, Stone, etc).

    ...Which is different than what people were saying after Barr's summary was dropped.

    Obviously hitching our country's fortunes to the contents of the full report would be ridiculous and Trump handed quite the gift to dems by going after the ACA again, but just shrugging as the GOP pretended Trump is an unjustly accused choirboy and now we have proof would make the political opposition quite a bit weaker.
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    Post by chrondog Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:26 pm

    The fundamental tension here is the difference between "the law" as in statutes and the law as in enforcement mechanisms.

    Donald Trump could do 100 things that violate statues, but if there isn't an institution that's going to do the heavy lifting of prosecuting him it doesn't matter at all.

    This is the same thing that people talk about when they reference "the law being applied differently if you're rich". There's a lot of leeway for judges and prosecutors in how they choose to enforce the law! They can have evidence you did something, but drop the charges anyway because they don't want to fight you on it. 

    In this case, being the President is such a powerful position that it's virtually untouchable if you have any political cover. There's nobody whose job it is to prosecute you. The checks and balances on the Executive branch are super super weak. The Supreme Court has crazy conflict of interest and congress is a political body.

    The only people who could move the needle on this would be Democrats in the house advancing an argument for why, Russia or no, this dude's impeachable. Impeachment has always been a political process that doesn't require a legal case. When are you ever going to have a President who is this unpopular again? Too bad they suck ass instead.
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    Post by Duff... Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:23 am

    chrondog wrote:The fundamental tension here is the difference between "the law" as in statutes and the law as in enforcement mechanisms.

    Donald Trump could do 100 things that violate statues, but if there isn't an institution that's going to do the heavy lifting of prosecuting him it doesn't matter at all.

    This is the same thing that people talk about when they reference "the law being applied differently if you're rich". There's a lot of leeway for judges and prosecutors in how they choose to enforce the law! They can have evidence you did something, but drop the charges anyway because they don't want to fight you on it. 

    In this case, being the President is such a powerful position that it's virtually untouchable if you have any political cover. There's nobody whose job it is to prosecute you. The checks and balances on the Executive branch are super super weak. The Supreme Court has crazy conflict of interest and congress is a political body.

    Pretty much.

    What practical purpose do you find in the house pushing impeachment? Obviously it should happen but what's the point if the senate will never remove him and we're coming up on an election year anyway?
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    Post by chrondog Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:44 pm

    It pushes the narrative that the things he's done are bad/unacceptable and should not be tolerated in an effort to keep that in the news cycle and drive public opinion.

    Realistically, I think the Democratic leadership has been too inconsistent on this point to make it effective, but that's the thinking.

    How can Democrats claim that Trump is an existential threat to democracy AND shouldn't be impeached? It's logical nonsense, but it's the party line.
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    Post by techno raj Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:37 pm

    The public understanding of impeachment has changed a lot from how the founders envisioned it. Today impeachment is considered a win/lose and parties wouldn't initiate it unless it was a foregone conclusion. Impeachment is unlikely to be a smart political move even with a corrupt/amoral/unpopular president, and I'm not sure we'll ever see it used again. Maybe if the votes to convict were a stone-cold lock and the president refused to resign ala Nixon.

    I think Democrats have broadly been playing this correctly; keep the investigations on a steady boil but devote the most energy and attention to the areas where Trump and his party are truly vulnerable (mainly health care).
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    Post by chrondog Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:56 pm

    techno raj wrote:Impeachment is unlikely to be a smart political move even with a corrupt/amoral/unpopular president, and I'm not sure we'll ever see it used again.

    I haven't seen any evidence of this. Have you?

    I think it's too large of an action to easily poll and the twists/turns of the process mean the narrative would swing pretty wildly. 

    I agree on the broader point that, with the way the Democratic coalition is structured, they would put out terribly inconsistent messaging that would make impeachment look ridiculous. 

    From a moral/logical standpoint, if you believe that the President of the US is more interested in self-enrichment than serving the will of the people, it's the only choice to make.
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    Post by techno raj Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:44 pm

    chrondog wrote:
    techno raj wrote:Impeachment is unlikely to be a smart political move even with a corrupt/amoral/unpopular president, and I'm not sure we'll ever see it used again.

    I haven't seen any evidence of this. Have you?

    I think it's too large of an action to easily poll and the twists/turns of the process mean the narrative would swing pretty wildly. 

    You could certainly argue either way. I'm going on the reaction to the Clinton impeachment and my sense that Trump does worse on issues closest to home for voters. But I don't have hard data, no.

    This lays out some of the pros and cons of both sides (obviously from before the Barr summary was issued): https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-democrats-have-an-impeachment-problem/

    From a moral/logical standpoint, if you believe that the President of the US is more interested in self-enrichment than serving the will of the people, it's the only choice to make.

    I would generally agree from a moral standpoint, but I think the logical standpoint pulls in a quite different direction (as is usually the case).
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    Post by Duff... Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:54 pm

    Yeah, I mean logic in the sense that if you feel he's dangerous, you should act to unseat him as quickly as possible, sure. But the real world is throwing a few monkey wrenches at this situation.
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    Post by WP64 Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:26 pm


    I couldn't even get through all of this video. The answer to whether or not her comments were anti-Semitic is "no, they are not." It doesn't really matter that there is a "fierce debate" within the nebulously defined "Jewish community." What's actually much more anti-Semitic is to conflate Jewish identity with unequivocal support for Israeli settlements in the West Bank or the Israeli government's refusal to even consider a two-state solution. It's completely absurd. There are plenty of Jews living within Israel itself that oppose these policies and there are millions of Jews throughout the world that criticize the country's treatment of the minority Palestinian population within the country.

    People really need to fuck off with this shit. There is nothing anti-Semitic about opposing oppression. It's an actual apartheid State that has come to define citizenship by religious identity and yet American liberals are having a hard time with this?

    Edit: I just finished the video and agree with Samantha Bee's overall point. So I take some of this back.
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    Post by undo Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:37 am

    Mind-meltingly insulting to watch the news and have journalists discussing just how big of a secret the specifics of Trump's plan to replace the ACA are.

    Like, I get why they can't say he's lying about it but why not just say, "so far, there is no evidence that such a plan exists."

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    Post by undo Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:33 pm

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/barr-didn-t-do-justice-mueller-report-officials-tell-new-n990776

    Some on Mueller team say evidence against Trump stronger than Barr disclosed
    Three officials say a dispute within Mueller's office was one reason he didn't make a call on the question of whether Trump had obstructed justice.

    April 3, 2019, 7:51 PM ‎CDT / Updated April 4, 2019, 10:36 AM ‎CDT
    By Ken Dilanian, Julia Ainsley and Pete Williams

    Some members of special counsel Robert Mueller's team have expressed frustration that Attorney General William Barr cleared President Donald Trump of obstruction of justice, and they believe the evidence that Trump sought to impede the investigation is stronger than Barr suggested in his March letter summarizing Mueller's findings, a U.S. official who has spoken with the members tells NBC News.

    Justice Department officials say Barr had no choice but to render a judgment, because the special counsel regulations say that he is ultimately in charge of the investigation. If Mueller believed Trump was guilty of obstruction, he could have said so, the officials argue — but he didn't do that in his report.

    Three government officials have told NBC News that a dispute within the special counsel's office on the facts and the law was one factor behind Mueller's decision not to make a call on the obstruction question.

    The lawyers and FBI agents on Mueller's team could not reach an agreement about whether Trump's conduct amounted to a corrupt — and therefore illegal — effort to impede the probe, the three officials said. As a result, Barr, after consulting with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, stepped in to clear the president, saying the evidence did not amount to a prosecutable case of obstruction of justice.

    The feelings of some members of Mueller's team do not change the attorney general's legal conclusions — which cleared Trump on both obstruction and conspiracy with Russia. But the political impact could be huge, as Democrats seek more information on Mueller's findings.

    The New York Times and The Washington Post first reported that some members of the Mueller team were upset with how Barr portrayed the evidence.

    A former federal prosecutor familiar with Barr's thinking said the attorney general believed the obstruction case was complicated by the fact that the questionable actions taken by Trump, such as firing his FBI director, were authorized under the powers of the presidency.

    At least one faction within the office says their intent was to leave the legal question open for Congress and the public to examine the evidence, the U.S. official who has spoken to them said. It's not clear how Mueller himself feels about the matter.

    On Thursday morning, the Justice Department issued a statement saying that Barr had decided to release the "bottom-line findings" and conclusions of the Mueller report immediately, without attempting to summarize it. The statement said he did so with the understanding that the report would be made public once confidential information in it had been redacted.

    "The Department continues to work with the Special Counsel on appropriate redactions to the report so that it can be released to Congress and the public," said the statement issued by the department spokesperson, Kerri Kupec.

    House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y., sent a letter to Barr later in the day urging him to release to the public any "summaries" in the report prepared by the special counsel's office. Nadler also requested that Barr hand over to the committee "all communications between the special counsel's office and the [Justice] Department regarding the report."

    "You have already provided an interpretation of the special counsel's conclusions in a fashion that appears to minimize the implications of the report as to the president," Nadler said in the letter. "Releasing the summaries—without delay—would begin to allow the American people to judge the facts for themselves."

    Mueller told Barr and his deputy Rod Rosenstein four weeks ago that he would not be making a decision about obstruction — news that came as a surprise to them, Justice Department officials said. Barr's letter said Rosenstein agreed with his decision that there was no case that the president had obstructed justice.

    It's also unclear whether Barr coordinated his March 24 letter in advance with Mueller. Many longtime observers of Mueller are puzzled as to why he didn't render his own judgment on a core matter in his investigation.

    The DOJ policy that says a sitting president can't be charged with a crime wasn't a factor in the dispute within Mueller's team, according to one senior U.S. official in a position to know. Rather, lawyers disagreed about whether they could prove that Trump had criminal intent as he took a variety of actions that seemed designed to shut down the investigation, from firing FBI Director James Comey, to ordering the dismissal of Mueller, only to back off when his White House counsel threatened to quit, according to The New York Times and not confirmed by NBC News.

    The official who has spoken to members of Mueller's team says they described the evidence on obstruction as compelling and said it includes more information than has been made public.

    flavortown  hawks

    According to a senior law enforcement official who has spoken to members of Mueller's team, Mueller team members say it includes detailed accounts of Trump campaign contacts with Russia. While Mueller found no coordination or criminal conspiracy, the official said, some on the special counsel's team say his findings paint a picture of a campaign whose members were manipulated by a sophisticated Russian intelligence operation. Some of that information may be classified, the official said, so it's not clear whether it will be released in a few weeks when Barr makes public a redacted version of the Mueller report.

    Trump lawyers have pushed back against some of this reporting.

    "They're a bunch of sneaky, unethical leakers," Rudy Giuliani said on Fox News about the Mueller team. "And they are rabid Democrats who hate the president of the United States, and I can't tell you how much false information they leaked during the course of the investigation."
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    Post by chrondog Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:24 pm

    It's very fun to reflect on the obsession with "normalization" that occurred in November/December 2016 and then to see where we are today, where the normalization of the grossness of the Trump Era has probably gone even further than we imagined. 

    Locking children in cages is just policy, obstructing justice is a political game, and celebrating your own history of harassment while using Reddit memes to attack other presidential candidates for creeping on women is savvy campaigning. 

    I feel that this reality is a clear signal that what people were referring to as "normalization" back then is actually a course correction to more accurately reflect the crassness and base-level reasoning of our populace. What was false "normalized" by the tone & decorum police was the idea that newspaper columnists are harbingers of decency or that political offices are sacrosanct. We've always been disgusting and now our political landscape simply reflects that.

    I also feel that realizing that should be the first step in ditching any remnants of the "when they go low, we go high" insanity that's been propagated by the Clinton and Obama machines. The "we go high" crowd is not a movable political group that needs to be courted! People may not be "sophisticated" or "high minded", but their motivations are certainly complex (hence, how you get Obama-Trump voters). 

    It seems to be that voters are actually smarter about separating the bullshit aspects of tone policing (like diction that isn't meaningful to regular people) and seeing more of the substance behind tone (I.E. which politician is on my team?).
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    Post by Ned Braden Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:01 pm

    Anybody paying attention has been thinking about this since Barr failed to recuse himself despite his notoriously pro-Trump memo to Rosenstein.

    https://t.co/SSIFnehvHl?amp=1

    Still tho, glad to see waves of headlines over the last day or two suggesting that maybe checks and balances aren’t dead.
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    Post by Ned Braden Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:02 pm

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/437947-trump-moves-to-install-loyalists

    “Trump’s apparent criteria for picking top officials have raised questions about whether he is seeking the most qualified candidates or instead choosing people who might be willing to cross ethical or legal lines, especially on issues where Trump has taken a personal interest.”

    “Those concerns were renewed last week after The New York Times reportedTrump personally lobbied Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to confirm his nominee to be chief counsel of the IRS at a time when Democrats were readying a push to obtain his tax returns.”

    Honestly, I’m surprised more people aren’t crying foul on what seems to be is obviously an overarching theme of corruption. Same thing happened with the Sessions/Barr turnover.


    Related issue:
    “After Trump left the room, agents sought further advice from their leaders, who told them they were not giving them that direction and if they did what the President said they would take on personal liability. You have to follow the law, they were told.”

    This popular “you can’t indict a sitting president” interpretation needs to go. He routinely orders people to break laws. That should be... illegal.

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/08/politics/trump-family-separation-el-paso-kirstjen-nielsen/index.html


    Last edited by Ned Braden on Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edit marked by strike through text)
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    Post by Duff... Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:58 pm

    Yeah, it feels like we're turning the corner on a whole new version of terrible.
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    Post by chrondog Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:09 pm

    Ned Braden wrote:“Trump’s apparent criteria for picking top officials have raised questions about whether he is seeking the most qualified candidates or instead choosing people who might be willing to cross ethical or legal lines, especially on issues where Trump has taken a personal interest.”

    LOL, welcome to 2015 lamestream media

    "apparent criteria"
    "raised questions"
    "might be willing"
    "taken a personal interest"

    How can anyone still wonder why normal people who are living a life based on common sense think the media has no clue?
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    Post by jesus jones Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:27 pm

    hopefully he'll just fucking die soon
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    Post by undo Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:35 am

    release the report THEN do the press conference you dumb shit
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    Post by WP64 Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:36 pm

    I just got a bunch of push notifications that the new Mueller dropped though!
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    Post by undo Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:41 pm

    The Donald J. Trump Presidency - Page 2 Ffffff10
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    Post by Ned Braden Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:27 pm

    So are we all gonna read this redacted thing, or just trust that everything press secretary Barr said in his summaries was sufficient and the truth?
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    Post by zappo Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:17 pm

    I am blown away that "Yeah, but he was angry, so you can't hold it against him" is actually being used to excuse some of these shits.  Like...God damn.  It's not like I wasn't expecting some brazen lunacy, here, but that's pretty beyond the pale. I can think of a few dudes gunned down in the streets for curtly walking away from the police who could've used some of that thinking.
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    Post by undo Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:27 pm

    WP64 wrote:I just got a bunch of push notifications that the new Mueller dropped though!

    It's remarkable just how little I cared about this going into today and even after watching the Burr thing this morning.

    Like, I'm only now realizing just how effectively they managed the narrative of this entire process, how transparently theatrical Burr's summary report was back in March, how obvious it was that it was meant to mislead and get Trump ahead of any damaging findings, how it was blatantly orchestrated and fake and everyone knew it (including myself)...and yet, it really did get tons of us to get on the "Mueller sucks, this was never going to save us, we need to move on..." train, and it worked!

    And that doesn't change the fact that, no, we can't rely on Mueller to save us... but that summary was incredibly effective in killing Resistance morale and in taking the teeth out of the actual report when it would eventually be released (even in the possibility that it did actually plainly state that Trump obstructed justice and colluded with Russia). The summary he gave 3 and a half weeks ago was both obviously strategic and not at all concerned with truth and everyone knew it, but it accomplished exactly what it was supposed to do. And I never thought that I would let psychic tactics like that work on me but now I see that's exactly what happened! Like, this is The Mueller Report, this is what we've all been waiting for, it's a big deal and I should care about it, and yet I'd somehow settled into the mindset that:
    -it's probably not going to matter
    -it doesn't matter what it says
    -I was a fool for caring about this and I won't fall for it again!

    None of these were conscious thoughts but I know I was under their spell. Even now I'm struggling to understand what's real.
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    Post by Duff... Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:59 pm

    I felt like this morning but now I'm more or less where I was a month ago? I dunno.

    zappo wrote:I am blown away that "Yeah, but he was angry, so you can't hold it against him" is actually being used to excuse some of these shits.  Like...God damn.  It's not like I wasn't expecting some brazen lunacy, here, but that's pretty beyond the pale. I can think of a few dudes gunned down in the streets for curtly walking away from the police who could've used some of that thinking.

    And this is, like, the attorney general.
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    Post by undo Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:59 pm

    The Donald J. Trump Presidency - Page 2 D4cgzntXoAAqGtk

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