The Donald J. Trump Presidency

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    raj gibson
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by raj gibson on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:14 pm

    Duff... wrote:It didn't have to be this way
    But wouldn't this be matter of when, not if? When you say this will "still be a perfectly fine place to live" and won't be a "country that people care about" (presumably in the sense of presence on the world stage). Isn't that an accurate way of describing every country's decline from empire?

    There simply isn't any reason to count on us for anything anymore
    I mean, momentum. The biggest military and economy in the world doesn't stop mattering overnight no matter who wins the election.

    And then the chinese middle class will expand, and then India's, and no one will even need to give a shit about us as consumers anymore.
    This could eventually be true but those countries have much more difficult, deeply ingrained problems to overcome before they exceed us to the point where they make us economically irrelevant.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by raj gibson on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:19 pm

    chrondog wrote:Trump's great strength is that he isn't smart enough to realize that people who are smarter than him can see straight through his bullshit, so he continues it indefinitely.
    If it's worked thus far... is it really a stupid (tactically speaking)?

    The unfortunate reality is that his embarrassingly transparent con man act is more sophisticated than about 40% of the voting public, and about 2/3rds of that group form his political base.
    Many of these people know he's a con man, or wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be one... they just didn't see that as a tangibly worse choice. Part of his success was realizing that if anti-establishment fervor reached a high enough level, being a con man wouldn't be a disqualifier anymore.

    I have always said that Trump's great success from a political standpoint was reimagining what a winning coalition looks like. Most of us did not expect that the duo of the incredibly ignorant and the unimaginably cynical was one such coalition.
    Agree with this although I think our system strongly incentives ignorance. Not giving the ignorant a full pass but I have some sympathy for them. The cynical (moneyed elites, media, etc.) just come out so much worse.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:37 pm

    raj gibson wrote:If it's worked thus far... is it really a stupid (tactically speaking)?

    First, I know there's a lot of discussion about the word "stupid" as it relates to Trump, so we can put that aside if we want. I understand that "stupid" is a pretty inarticulate term. Assuming that it's a tactic and not a character or intellectual flaw, we could call it "cynicism" or realpolitik instead.

    That being said, it depends what the goal is if we want to evaluate it tactically. If Trump's sole goal is personal enrichment perhaps he has succeeded. If it is self-aggrandizement, he has succeeded on some levels but failed massively on a wider level because he is becoming increasingly unpopular over time. If it is successfully enacting his agenda, he is projected to be a failure. If it is to be evaluated favorably by history, that will be perhaps the harshest indictment of his "tactics".

    raj gibson wrote:Many of these people know he's a con man, or wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be one... they just didn't see that as a tangibly worse choice. Part of his success was realizing that if anti-establishment fervor reached a high enough level, being a con man wouldn't be a disqualifier anymore.
     

    Good point. It goes back to intent: is Trump trying to be a con man or is it simply his true character? That's an interesting question for a minute, but not one I care that much about in the long run.

    raj gibson wrote:Agree with this although I think our system strongly incentives ignorance. Not giving the ignorant a full pass but I have some sympathy for them. The cynical (moneyed elites, media, etc.) just come out so much worse.

    I believe sociological determinism is a massive factor in our world, so I definitely sympathize with the people that I am casually labeling "stupid". We've had good debates on this board about the failings of the corporate, globalist left. If politics were not a zero sum game, it would be easy for me to say that the Democratic party hasn't earned the vote of huge swaths of the country or done enough to materially improve their situations.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by Duff... on Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:24 am

    raj gibson wrote:
    Duff... wrote:It didn't have to be this way
    But wouldn't this be matter of when, not if? When you say this will "still be a perfectly fine place to live" and won't be a "country that people care about" (presumably in the sense of presence on the world stage). Isn't that an accurate way of describing every country's decline from empire?

    There simply isn't any reason to count on us for anything anymore
    I mean, momentum. The biggest military and economy in the world doesn't stop mattering overnight no matter who wins the election.

    And then the chinese middle class will expand, and then India's, and no one will even need to give a shit about us as consumers anymore.
    This could eventually be true but those countries have much more difficult, deeply ingrained problems to overcome before they exceed us to the point where they make us economically irrelevant.

    Was gonna itemize this response but I got some work I gotta get to so I'll leave it at "I don't disagree with you in any great way, I was just too tired to Raj-proof this post that night".
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by raj gibson on Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:36 am

    Yeah sorry if my response seemed picky, I don't mean to come down on people when they're just venting. Sometimes posts just push me to other ideas and I'm compelled to ask (more than argue).

    Chrono, good points and well put. It's impossible to know what's in his heart, but great liars often lie to themselves first. If they can internalize the core lie(s) as truth, all subsequent lies become far more effective, because they're not really doing the work of lying anymore. We don't know Trump's mind or soul but I would bet he truly believes most of his own narrative (and the parts that he doesn't he would regard as tactically deployed gamesmanship/hucksterism improving his own status/bargaining position, all sanctioned in support of the umbrella lie of self-made master dealmaker).

    I think this is one of the best pieces I have read in this vein and really important when thinking about why his supporters are OK with him lying frequently and blatantly (which, in my experience, seems to be one of the questions that most baffles liberals/highly educated peoples): https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-23/why-trump-s-staff-is-lying
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:52 pm

    raj gibson wrote:Chrono, good points and well put. It's impossible to know what's in his heart, but great liars often lie to themselves first. If they can internalize the core lie(s) as truth, all subsequent lies become far more effective, because they're not really doing the work of lying anymore. We don't know Trump's mind or soul but I would bet he truly believes most of his own narrative (and the parts that he doesn't he would regard as tactically deployed gamesmanship/hucksterism improving his own status/bargaining position, all sanctioned in support of the umbrella lie of self-made master dealmaker).

    That's why it's a semantic point that is interesting as an armchair psychologist for five minutes, then you realize it's not the essential question. The point where deception because delusion is so illusory. I think he is truly in that grey abyss where, as you say, his lies are more effective because he doesn't have to deal with the moral/emotional tax of confronting his own lies. There is some personal logic to Trump's decision that give it an air of consistency, even though his positions are anything but consistent. The consistent inconsistency of his personality gives the air of predictability. That's why his followers believe they "understand where he is coming from".
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by Duff... on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:06 pm

    raj gibson wrote:Yeah sorry if my response seemed picky, I don't mean to come down on people when they're just venting. Sometimes posts just push me to other ideas and I'm compelled to ask (more than argue).

    It's cool. We can stand to have more disagreements about things at this forum.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:26 pm

    In about 5 minutes he will soothe our nation's anxieties
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:26 pm

    Look at these goobers
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:49 am

    when you go to post in your Heart Hands thread but remember it was on the old board
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:17 pm

    We just gave them a free supreme court nomination because they told us to.

    like, how often do you just think about this
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by Duff... on Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:37 pm

    Not sure what we could have done about it.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:49 pm

    I wonder.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:38 pm

    We could've gone nuclear on McConnell's filibuster at the end of Obama's term, yes? It wouldn't have worked because not all the Democrats would've supported it, but if Democrats had a spine it was the clear path forward. I suspect that the thinking on Obama's team was similar to his thinking on the Russia investigation--don't rock the boat, because when Hillary wins she'll get to fill that seat anyway. An epic miscalculation.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by Duff... on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:26 am

    Nuclear?
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:17 pm

    Used the Senate's nuclear option to end McConnell's filibuster on Merick Garland. Which of course doesn't make sense because McConnell was not filibustering: he was the Senate Majority Leader and simply refused to move on Garland's nomination. My misrememberance there.

    Even if moderate Republicans wanted an up or down vote on Garland, only McConnell as the Majority Leader could move in that direction if I understand the Senate rules.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by raj gibson on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:04 am

    There was never any way for the Democrats to force the Garland issue. Tactically, this was always the correct thing for a Senate to do. The Democrats were just the ones standing up when the musical chairs game of civility ended. Maybe the more remarkable thing is that with the exception of the last 30 years and some incidents like FDR attempting to pack the court, the Supreme Court was usually not very controversial.

    Also consider that in the late 18th century, average life expectancy in America was like 35 years. A lifetime appointment meant something very different when the founders set up the whole system.

    Going forward we'll have to see if a president ever gets to nominate a justice when their party doesn't also control the Senate. Like if a president of one party is a few months into their first term, and the other party controls the Senate, and a justice retires/passes away; does the Senate just refuse to consider nominations until either the president or the Senate majority changes? I think it's quite likely.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:20 pm

    raj gibson wrote:Also consider that in the late 18th century, average life expectancy in America was like 35 years. A lifetime appointment meant something very different when the founders set up the whole system.

    America's constitution and institutions are fundamentally not suited for the 21st century, and the founders ensured that we can never change them.

    It's a thrilling reality.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:22 pm

    "The Republican senators are great people, but they have a lot of different states," he said. "Some states need this, some states need that, but we're getting it together and it's going to happen."

    He's literally learning about all this for the first time, the basics of legislation, how a bill is passed, what Medicaid is, how it works and gets paid for.

    This should be obvious to everyone and I don't even think that requires a robust comprehension of these matters.

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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:27 pm

    Posting breaking bad clips is probably just one or two levels below speaking in memes in terms of unforgivable insidiousness but honestly that's the first and last time I do it.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:59 pm

    http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rich-health-care-insurance-cost-639676

    TRUMP IS SO RICH HE THINKS HEALTH INSURANCE COSTS $12 PER YEAR
    BY RYAN BORT ON 7/20/17 AT 11:09 AM

    The New York Times on Thursday released a transcript of a Wednesday interview with Donald Trump. The president had just come from a lunch with 49 Republican senators, where he implored them to figure out a way to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act. Health care was a focal point of the Times interview, as well, and when reporter Maggie Haberman expressed to Trump how difficult it is to take away an entitlement, the president revealed just how little he understands the health care system.

    "But what it does, Maggie, it means it gets tougher and tougher," replied Trump. "As they get something, it gets tougher. Because politically, you can’t give it away. So pre-existing conditions are a tough deal. Because you are basically saying from the moment the insurance, you’re 21 years old, you start working and you’re paying $12 a year for insurance, and by the time you’re 70, you get a nice plan. Here’s something where you walk up and say, 'I want my insurance.' It’s a very tough deal, but it is something that we’re doing a good job of."

    It's unclear if Trump actually thinks a 21-year-old can get health insurance for $12 a year, but that's what he said. It is possible the president meant to say "month" instead of "year." As Vox points out, he said something similar in a May interview with The Economist: “Insurance is, you’re 20 years old, you just graduated from college, and you start paying $15 a month for the rest of your life and you really need it, you’re still paying the same amount and that’s really insurance."
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by Nick on Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:27 pm

    RIP Spicer.


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    chrondog
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:06 pm

    i'm glad that we've rapidly got to the actual mafioso portion of Trumps presidency. some rich Italian asshole from Long Island named Scaramucci is in charge? sounds like a fantastic recipe.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by reuben on Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:24 pm

    Whoa now Chrono I never pegged you for a bigot. Yer makin me MAAD
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by reuben on Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:28 pm

    How come it's cool to be in the mafia when you are a rap musician but it's a slur if you're a paesano? Ha-rumpf.


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