The Donald J. Trump Presidency

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    raj gibson
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by raj gibson on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:14 pm

    Duff... wrote:It didn't have to be this way
    But wouldn't this be matter of when, not if? When you say this will "still be a perfectly fine place to live" and won't be a "country that people care about" (presumably in the sense of presence on the world stage). Isn't that an accurate way of describing every country's decline from empire?

    There simply isn't any reason to count on us for anything anymore
    I mean, momentum. The biggest military and economy in the world doesn't stop mattering overnight no matter who wins the election.

    And then the chinese middle class will expand, and then India's, and no one will even need to give a shit about us as consumers anymore.
    This could eventually be true but those countries have much more difficult, deeply ingrained problems to overcome before they exceed us to the point where they make us economically irrelevant.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by raj gibson on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:19 pm

    chrondog wrote:Trump's great strength is that he isn't smart enough to realize that people who are smarter than him can see straight through his bullshit, so he continues it indefinitely.
    If it's worked thus far... is it really a stupid (tactically speaking)?

    The unfortunate reality is that his embarrassingly transparent con man act is more sophisticated than about 40% of the voting public, and about 2/3rds of that group form his political base.
    Many of these people know he's a con man, or wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be one... they just didn't see that as a tangibly worse choice. Part of his success was realizing that if anti-establishment fervor reached a high enough level, being a con man wouldn't be a disqualifier anymore.

    I have always said that Trump's great success from a political standpoint was reimagining what a winning coalition looks like. Most of us did not expect that the duo of the incredibly ignorant and the unimaginably cynical was one such coalition.
    Agree with this although I think our system strongly incentives ignorance. Not giving the ignorant a full pass but I have some sympathy for them. The cynical (moneyed elites, media, etc.) just come out so much worse.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:37 pm

    raj gibson wrote:If it's worked thus far... is it really a stupid (tactically speaking)?

    First, I know there's a lot of discussion about the word "stupid" as it relates to Trump, so we can put that aside if we want. I understand that "stupid" is a pretty inarticulate term. Assuming that it's a tactic and not a character or intellectual flaw, we could call it "cynicism" or realpolitik instead.

    That being said, it depends what the goal is if we want to evaluate it tactically. If Trump's sole goal is personal enrichment perhaps he has succeeded. If it is self-aggrandizement, he has succeeded on some levels but failed massively on a wider level because he is becoming increasingly unpopular over time. If it is successfully enacting his agenda, he is projected to be a failure. If it is to be evaluated favorably by history, that will be perhaps the harshest indictment of his "tactics".

    raj gibson wrote:Many of these people know he's a con man, or wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be one... they just didn't see that as a tangibly worse choice. Part of his success was realizing that if anti-establishment fervor reached a high enough level, being a con man wouldn't be a disqualifier anymore.
     

    Good point. It goes back to intent: is Trump trying to be a con man or is it simply his true character? That's an interesting question for a minute, but not one I care that much about in the long run.

    raj gibson wrote:Agree with this although I think our system strongly incentives ignorance. Not giving the ignorant a full pass but I have some sympathy for them. The cynical (moneyed elites, media, etc.) just come out so much worse.

    I believe sociological determinism is a massive factor in our world, so I definitely sympathize with the people that I am casually labeling "stupid". We've had good debates on this board about the failings of the corporate, globalist left. If politics were not a zero sum game, it would be easy for me to say that the Democratic party hasn't earned the vote of huge swaths of the country or done enough to materially improve their situations.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by Duff... on Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:24 am

    raj gibson wrote:
    Duff... wrote:It didn't have to be this way
    But wouldn't this be matter of when, not if? When you say this will "still be a perfectly fine place to live" and won't be a "country that people care about" (presumably in the sense of presence on the world stage). Isn't that an accurate way of describing every country's decline from empire?

    There simply isn't any reason to count on us for anything anymore
    I mean, momentum. The biggest military and economy in the world doesn't stop mattering overnight no matter who wins the election.

    And then the chinese middle class will expand, and then India's, and no one will even need to give a shit about us as consumers anymore.
    This could eventually be true but those countries have much more difficult, deeply ingrained problems to overcome before they exceed us to the point where they make us economically irrelevant.

    Was gonna itemize this response but I got some work I gotta get to so I'll leave it at "I don't disagree with you in any great way, I was just too tired to Raj-proof this post that night".
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by raj gibson on Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:36 am

    Yeah sorry if my response seemed picky, I don't mean to come down on people when they're just venting. Sometimes posts just push me to other ideas and I'm compelled to ask (more than argue).

    Chrono, good points and well put. It's impossible to know what's in his heart, but great liars often lie to themselves first. If they can internalize the core lie(s) as truth, all subsequent lies become far more effective, because they're not really doing the work of lying anymore. We don't know Trump's mind or soul but I would bet he truly believes most of his own narrative (and the parts that he doesn't he would regard as tactically deployed gamesmanship/hucksterism improving his own status/bargaining position, all sanctioned in support of the umbrella lie of self-made master dealmaker).

    I think this is one of the best pieces I have read in this vein and really important when thinking about why his supporters are OK with him lying frequently and blatantly (which, in my experience, seems to be one of the questions that most baffles liberals/highly educated peoples): https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-23/why-trump-s-staff-is-lying
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by chrondog on Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:52 pm

    raj gibson wrote:Chrono, good points and well put. It's impossible to know what's in his heart, but great liars often lie to themselves first. If they can internalize the core lie(s) as truth, all subsequent lies become far more effective, because they're not really doing the work of lying anymore. We don't know Trump's mind or soul but I would bet he truly believes most of his own narrative (and the parts that he doesn't he would regard as tactically deployed gamesmanship/hucksterism improving his own status/bargaining position, all sanctioned in support of the umbrella lie of self-made master dealmaker).

    That's why it's a semantic point that is interesting as an armchair psychologist for five minutes, then you realize it's not the essential question. The point where deception because delusion is so illusory. I think he is truly in that grey abyss where, as you say, his lies are more effective because he doesn't have to deal with the moral/emotional tax of confronting his own lies. There is some personal logic to Trump's decision that give it an air of consistency, even though his positions are anything but consistent. The consistent inconsistency of his personality gives the air of predictability. That's why his followers believe they "understand where he is coming from".
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by Duff... on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:06 pm

    raj gibson wrote:Yeah sorry if my response seemed picky, I don't mean to come down on people when they're just venting. Sometimes posts just push me to other ideas and I'm compelled to ask (more than argue).

    It's cool. We can stand to have more disagreements about things at this forum.
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:26 pm

    In about 5 minutes he will soothe our nation's anxieties
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:26 pm

    Look at these goobers
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    Re: The Donald J. Trump Presidency

    Post by undo on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:49 am

    when you go to post in your Heart Hands thread but remember it was on the old board

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