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    Post by chrondog Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:07 pm

    Gene Bootcut wrote:I have my first shot booked for tomorrow and someone is telling me I should reschedule it because I have a cold but don't feel ill in any other way? I don't know if that's true, I suppose I'll call the centre in the morning

    Over here they will ask you when you're in line if you've had any COVID-like symptoms in the past two weeks and ask you to delay two weeks (I think) if you have. You could also fib a bit if you're comfortable.

    WP64 wrote:I was a little concerned that it might take me a while to readjust to normal social activity but it has been effortless. It feels very, very good.

    I've found it pretty normal. I'm finding myself to be on the less cautious side than some people I know, which is surprising.

    To me, following COVID protocols was mostly a litmus test for who is a socially-responsible human. I wore my mask on runs even though I knew there was no chance I was going to get it/give it while running around outside. I was slightly concerned about my personal risk in 2020 because I'm a bit fat and smoke, but I just avoided airports and things like that. Now that I'm vaccinated I know there's basically no chance I'll get it. If I get it, there's basically no chance I'll get seriously ill. The point of the vaccine was to go back to normalcy and people without serious risk factors should act that way.

    I still happily wear a mask where it is asked for and will probably wear it inside sometimes even when it's not required. Partially to feel morally superior to shitty assholes. I'm a tiny bit concerned about new variants. I'm signing up for a booster shoot AS SOON as it is available. Innoculate me every six months, I say!

    I have zero hesitation about having an indoor meal for 1-2 hours with a group of vaccinated people, other than the fact that the pandemic showed me that restaurants are shitholes that have no economic rationale because they can't support workers and "the service industry" should probably die.
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    Post by Nick Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:48 am

    I went to bed at 11PM and woke up at 2AM with the sweats, a horrible headache and full body aches. It’s fine everything I read says this passes in 24 hours but I’ve been up a long time thinking about the past year. We are going to reach a point where the COVID death toll hits 800K, 900K and that number is so fucking astounding to me there is simply no way our media or government are going to do proper justice and take accountability for how poorly managed the pandemic has been.

    But beyond that, I want to know if/when we are going to get a breakdown of this death toll in terms of age, race and pre-existing conditions. Because I got to say, if you’re 80 or 90 years old and survived this you are one lucky motherfucker. But if you died because of the combination of COVID and a pre-existing condition I’d love to know how many of those deaths occurred because a lack of access to affordable, effective healthcare and if 900K deaths with a high percentage of those having been preventable with free healthcare… Well, I’m sure the insurance industry is already descending on Washington making sure this type of data isn’t released widely.

    Also, you got all these fucking people posting selfie’s while getting jabbed and “I love science” as their caption. You know what else science is responsible for? High fructose corn syrup. Diabetes and obesity is rampant in this country and contributed to how many deaths? Let’s see that breakdown too. Let’s maybe talk to the food industry about making healthy food affordable, accessible and ask people to not pull up to the all you can eat IHOP pancakes anymore because I see ads on TV encouraging vaccinations and plenty of times it’s followed by McDonald’s or some other shitty chain restaurant that is part of the wider problem.

    I’m rambling and literally seeing flashes of light while I type this. I have a 100 degree fever but whatever I just can’t believe we are over a year into this shit and no one is proactively talking about how to prevent us from being a perpetually at risk country by using this as a lesson as to why investing in healthcare and education around the fucking shit the food industry packs into so much trash we consume is now.
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    Post by Gene Bootcut Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:41 am

    yeah 2 hours and 20 minutes removed from my jab (shoulda read the literature, turns out a common cold is no reason to delay) and I feel like my brain is barely connected to my body and... wait, Nick, are you talking about your reaction to the vaccine or do you actually have covid?
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    Post by chrondog Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:32 pm

    Gene Bootcut wrote:wait, Nick, are you talking about your reaction to the vaccine or do you actually have covid?

    Nick wrote:Got that second dose this morning!
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    Post by WP64 Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:48 pm

    Great post, Nick. I am sure you will be feeling much better very soon as well. When it comes to basic information on diet and nutrition, I am embarrassingly ignorant. I stay physically fit, eat an apple every morning, really like salads and fruit, and try to eat what I understand to be a "balanced" diet. But by European standards, I am a fucking clueless idiot. When you eat at an Italian dinner table it is not uncommon for them to start talking about ingredients and debating the current food safety standards enforced by the European & Italian regulatory bodies. I would be so lost... They would point it out as well. I once had someone literally say to me "ah, well you never have any thought for what you are putting into your body." An obnoxious statement to make but unfortunately very true. Nor is it the fault of the American public. And Michelle Obama's half-assed attempt to shame people into making better food choices is not sufficient (although I guess it is nice that she at least tried to bring it into the national political consciousness).
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    Post by chrondog Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:59 pm

    Michelle's corny shit is far more effective than similar government campaigns about the food pyramid and whatnot. It's not a substitute for real change, but it isn't bad. Reflexively I tend to criticize these "half-assed" efforts, as you say, when I should give them their minor props and move on.

    Nick wrote:Also, you got all these fucking people posting selfie’s while getting jabbed and “I love science” as their caption. You know what else science is responsible for? High fructose corn syrup. Diabetes and obesity is rampant in this country and contributed to how many deaths? Let’s see that breakdown too. Let’s maybe talk to the food industry about making healthy food affordable, accessible and ask people to not pull up to the all you can eat IHOP pancakes anymore because I see ads on TV encouraging vaccinations and plenty of times it’s followed by McDonald’s or some other shitty chain restaurant that is part of the wider problem.

    I’m rambling and literally seeing flashes of light while I type this. I have a 100 degree fever but whatever I just can’t believe we are over a year into this shit and no one is proactively talking about how to prevent us from being a perpetually at risk country by using this as a lesson as to why investing in healthcare and education around the fucking shit the food industry packs into so much trash we consume is now.

    I used to be a lot more technocratic, but that kind of thinking has obviously failed. Technology isn't a panacea. Science is gonna continue getting more twisted and evil.

    Unfortunately, the only people who I have seen making "the COVID pandemic is fueled by the obesity epidemic" are right-wing wackos on the Internet pushing a bad faith agenda about economic reopening. "Why are they closing gyms when gyms are what will save all these fat fucks from dying?" type of stuff.

    The fact that the US government pushes the zero-effort fix of "the vaccine" over taking care of yourself holistically is a larger problem with the Western medical establishment and politics. It is just one of the laundry list of issues where America's get-rich-quick, short-termist thinking is counterproductive to actually changing outcomes.

    The only way to force people to be healthier is to have universal health care and make people do certain things to get care. Fire up them death panels!
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    Post by undo Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:16 pm

    Remember when Barack Obama told people they'd save gas if they made sure their tires were inflated properly and people completely lost their shit over it?

    Maybe that has nothing to do with this but I think about it often.
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    Post by undo Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:18 pm

    Why is Fauci in the news every day over the last week? People want to see him hanging from the gallows.

    People want to kill him because he signed a book deal? Because of something he wrote in an email? Did he get hacked and doxxed?

    I am having far more trouble getting through ten minutes of the news today than I ever did four years ago.
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    Post by WP64 Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:55 pm

    chrondog wrote:I used to be a lot more technocratic, but that kind of thinking has obviously failed. Technology isn't a panacea.
    My approach has become to always think programmatically, which helps me to remove my ideological blinders and actually confront the constraints of our social and political reality without losing sight of fundamental political demands by obsessing over specific policy ideas. I think that was the real success of the Sanders campaign, especially in 2015-6. By centering the campaign around popular and universal programs (Medicare-for-All) he was able to overcome the cultural partisan divide and actually mobilize a meaningful base of support around a transformative social democratic program. There are still a million legislative and political barriers before those programs can actually be actualized but it is the most realistic path forward and the only alternative to nihilism, apathy, or far-left maximalism.
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    Post by chrondog Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:40 pm

    WP64 wrote:
    chrondog wrote:I used to be a lot more technocratic, but that kind of thinking has obviously failed. Technology isn't a panacea.
    My approach has become to always think programmatically, which helps me to remove my ideological blinders and actually confront the constraints of our social and political reality without losing sight of fundamental political demands by obsessing over specific policy ideas. I think that was the real success of the Sanders campaign, especially in 2015-6. By centering the campaign around popular and universal programs (Medicare-for-All) he was able to overcome the cultural partisan divide and actually mobilize a meaningful base of support around a transformative social democratic program. There are still a million legislative and political barriers before those programs can actually be actualized but it is the most realistic path forward and the only alternative to nihilism, apathy, or far-left maximalism.

    I think that's a good insight. You may recall that I worked for an economics policy think tank from like 2012-2015 and I was impressed by the ability of those people to realize the limitations of what they were doing while still contributing smartly and enthusiastically. At the same time, I look back now and think of them as a cog in a professionalized machine that doesn't do much with their input. And with social media, the political challenges have only grown. There's something that seems thoughtful about coming to the table with a very specific proposal, but it's illusory. It's virtually next to impossible to be constructive in the policy space with all the bad faith think tankers and Chamber of Commerce idiots ruining the whole field.

    The Hillary wing of the left will continue to ask "where's the 300 page bill and how are we paying for it?" because they love to pretend they don't know the answer: taxing rich people, investors, corporations, and anyone else who is a leech on workers and flat out giving that money to people. The reality is these hoity toity libs don't want to end hunger or homelessness; liberals believe poverty is a lack of virtue and seeing others "fail" validates their own success.

    Wealth redistribution is my policy position. Anyone who makes over $2 million a year should be footing the bill for EVERYTHING. Beyond that, just give people money. Then we can start taking a look at the inefficient bureaucrats that make our services so damn expensive.
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    Post by WP64 Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:52 pm

    I did not know you worked for a policy think tank. As I get older, I have actually become much more reverent of "expertise" and the functional role of experts within the state. For me, socialism actually means a democratically planned economy and not just the negotiated compromise of a 'social market economy.' We should be fighting for a Green Keynesianism because it is popular and realizable in our lifetimes but we should also have the courage to look beyond those narrow political horizons.

    Do you know James C. Scott? There is an old New York Times article about him. Very interesting figure. The 1970s are such an important decade for all of these debates. The shock of global competitive pressures, de-industrialization and the offshoring of manufacturing plants, the qualitative transformation of the labor market (commodity production to services), and the state's frontal assault on organized labor. At this same moment, the academic Left was abandoning a lot of central tenets of the Marxist canon and began focusing on other forms of oppression beyond the point of economic production (women & gender studies, critical race theory) and considering other forms of historical agency other than the industrial proletariat (peasants, slaves, etc.) James C. Scott was a really important figure in this intellectual moment. His earlier ethnographic work was focused on peasant societies in Southeast Asia.

    His most famous book though, Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed, is really excellent. It reads really well, too. It is meant for a popular audience. It is a really important thesis to take seriously because it would be abhorrent to repeat the follies and tragedies of the twentieth-century centralized economic planning schemes. I think about his thesis when considering the current debates about the role of economic planning to confront our impending ecological catastrophe. We need to think about "planning" differently. Instead of more credentialed, Ivy League-educated technocrats, we really ought to take indigenous practices and local knowledge seriously. They used to practice controlled forest fires in order to better manage their ecology and prevent the kind of uncontrollable wild fires that are becoming endemic in southern California. Mike Davis writes a lot about this as well. Fascinating stuff.
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    Post by chrondog Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:12 pm

    Yeah, I was an executive assistant and editor there. As an editor, I got to read most of the research firsthand which was cool. I think we're saying flipsides of the same thing. I was impressed by their ability to do their work without being concerned that it would actually be implemented. The more you're around the politics of that world, the more you realize that the kind of honest, intellectually curious, and rigorous work they did has absolutely zero place in our current environment. That was what was disheartening. I don't want to be naive enough to think the political friction will change, so the reality is the planning always becomes less important than the politics.

    Not familiar with Scott. My primary area of interest and study was the 19th century. Based on a quick Wiki reading, the thesis of The Art of Not Being Governed follows nicely from my studies of 19th century nationalisms and state building. The idea of evading the statebuilding project by being "barbaric by design" is quite interesting. Contrary to many peoples' notion of modernity, the modern state is based on conformity. The modern state only seeks to increase economic output, so if you are not centralized/industralized, you have nothing to offer it. Very smart of the Lao people!

    My favorite professor used a similar texted called Peasants into Frenchmen by Eugen Weber to make the point about nationalism in France:

    Weber is associated with several important academic arguments. His book: Peasants into Frenchmen: The Modernization of Rural France 1870–1914 is a classic presentation of modernization theory. Although other historians such as Henri Mendras had put forward similar theories about the modernization of the French countryside, Weber's book was amongst the first to focus on changes in the period between 1870 and 1914. Weber emphasizes that well into the 19th century few French citizens regularly spoke French, but rather regional languages or dialects such as Breton, Gascon, Basque, Catalan, Flemish, Alsatian, and Corsican. Even in French-speaking areas provincial loyalties often transcended the putative bond of the nation. Between 1870 and 1914, Weber argued, a number of new forces penetrated the previously isolated countryside. These included the judicial and school systems, the army, the church, railways, roads, and a market economy. The result was the wholesale transformation of the population from "peasants," basically ignorant of the wider nation, to Frenchmen.

    The fire-prevention issue is particularly important to me. In addition to indigenous practices, there are a lot of land managers who understand controlled burns are a critical element of our fire-prevention infrastructure, but fire prevention gets basically no funding! Trump turned it into a whole political issue with Newsom last year. Fire prevention is another issue where the long-term interests of communities has run up against the interests of wealthy property owners. Rich people living by forests and the general Western American tendency to put major cities right by tinderboxes. It's a problem with known solutions you could literally throw money at and get a great return on investment, but American doesn't do that. We let cities like Paradise, CA burn to the ground and tell people to get fucked.

    There's a huge question of how to value local control while promoting progressive cultural values as well. I'd love to let Mississippi figure out their own when it comes to cleaning up lakes and streams, less so when it comes to setting up the polls. Federalism has some virtues.

    Overall, I'm back where I started. I'm a planner at heart, but I fail to see how "long-term planning" fits in with our yo-yo political system and one party trying to destroy it from the inside. Do we keep the faith and try to build consensus for central planning? Or do we try a different strategy that doesn't rely so much on consensus to get things done? I'm still a statist, but increasingly think that American will never go down that route.
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    Post by WP64 Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:11 am

    chrondog wrote:I was impressed by their ability to do their work without being concerned that it would actually be implemented. The more you're around the politics of that world, the more you realize that the kind of honest, intellectually curious, and rigorous work they did has absolutely zero place in our current environment. That was what was disheartening. I don't want to be naive enough to think the political friction will change, so the reality is the planning always becomes less important than the politics.
    The fact that there are ambitious, professional policy wonks orbiting around DSA and other organizations would suggest that even some of these careerists have started to come to terms with that reality, which is good.

    chrondog wrote:My favorite professor used a similar texted called Peasants into Frenchmen by Eugen Weber to make the point about nationalism in France:

    My intellectual mentor has always told me to read this book. I have a copy of it sitting on my shelf next to me right now. It is quite lengthy and I don't want to get lost in the historical minutiae of nineteenth-century France and the state institutions developed during the Third Republic to actually form the modern citizenry. Someday I will get around to it. All very fascinating. It is interesting to compare the French Third Republic to post-Risorgimento/unification Italy, which failed to create integrative institutions through which to form a common national identity. Instead, that project was actually taken up by the Fascists. In a lot of ways, it is a project that was never really completed.

    chrondog wrote:The fire-prevention issue is particularly important to me. In addition to indigenous practices, there are a lot of land managers who understand controlled burns are a critical element of our fire-prevention infrastructure, but fire prevention gets basically no funding! Trump turned it into a whole political issue with Newsom last year. Fire prevention is another issue where the long-term interests of communities has run up against the interests of wealthy property owners. Rich people living by forests and the general Western American tendency to put major cities right by tinderboxes. It's a problem with known solutions you could literally throw money at and get a great return on investment, but American doesn't do that. We let cities like Paradise, CA burn to the ground and tell people to get fucked.
    Have you read any Mike Davis? There is a really famous chapter in one his books, The Ecology of Fear, where he makes the case for letting Malibu burn to the ground. He is very funny about it. He describes southern California as having a "revolutionary, not reformist landscape" like himself and is literally rooting for these fires. He is mostly just goading people but it also raises a bunch of really interesting points about the agentic capacities of our surrounding landscapes and how we understand ourselves in relation to the planet.
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    Post by jesus jones Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:02 am

    had my first work meeting for the new job yesterday and since everyone is vaxxed, the staff overwhelmingly voted against wearing masks for service

    i have a deep sense of doom and i don't really know what to do about it
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    Post by WP64 Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:28 am

    If you really feel uncomfortable about the decision you could probably just keep wearing your mask. Nobody is going to get mad at you and I don't think it would be legal to fire you (although that is just speculation and our labor laws are actually probably garbage). In general though, I do think Chrono has the right attitude and approach to our post-vaccine social world. We are getting vaccinated so that we can start returning to normal. The vaccines are supposed to prevent infection. If someone is unlucky enough to still be infected, the vaccine should, at the very least, prevent the manifestation of any severe symptoms that would require hospitalization. Eventually you just have to take the leap and bin your masks.
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    Post by chrondog Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:18 pm

    For food staff who interact with a lot of unvaccinated patrons, I think it makes sense to err on the side of caution. Especially because people will bend the rules anyway. I wouldn't feel safe in a work environment where people weren't taking things seriously at all, even if I felt my personal risk was low. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable encouraging patrons to not take my safety seriously.

    Sucks dude.
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    Post by Nick Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:12 pm

    Several people I work with are fully vaccinated and responsible in general and have gotten COVID in the past couple weeks. Scary shit!
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    Post by chrondog Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:31 pm

    That sucks, but thanks for the update. I think that's going to be the norm for the next few months.

    I think I'm only being saved by the fact that the Bay Area has a pretty high vaccination rate. I've been to a number of maskless events recently and my friends have been to even more. I'm going to have to stop soon.
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    Post by WP64 Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:31 pm

    Yeah. Thanks for the heads up. I am pretty sketched out about these variants since I am living with my 93 year old grandmother who is already sick. My family is dumb as fuck and allowed my sister and her friend to fly to Florida last week. Her friend is already sick and had to get a Covid test, which fortunately came back negative. I understand the desire to return back to normal and I've been going out a little bit as well. Once I am back in Italy and living with just my younger roommates, I'll probably be even more reckless when it comes to socializing and maskless events.
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    Post by Nick Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:38 am

    It’s so weird to me how professional athletes are testing positive and it would seem to be due to a refusal to get vaccinated. Baseball players and football players are straight up not answering questions from the press about whether they’ve been vaccinated.

    I have to imagine someone like Tom Brady would not get the shot because he’s a psycho but these jobs depend upon them being healthy and their teams making money from fans in seats. The entire conversation around this is getting more and more fucked up.
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    Post by chrondog Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:28 pm

    I think part of it is athletes having to interact with a lot of people, many of them unvaccinated, and getting breakthrough cases. There seemed to be a lot of that during the NBA season. For international athletes, we also have to consider that many countries still don't have vaccine access! I assume many superstar athletes at the Olympics aren't vaccinated because of their country of origin. Australia has been absolute shit about vaccines, so I get most of their athletes aren't vaccinated.

    My company cancelled our "voluntary welcome back to the office happy hour" tonight. Good stuff! Don't wanna get that big D!
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    Post by undo Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:37 pm

    Duff... wrote:
    zappo wrote:Protester in Algonquin, IL.  Photo credit: my big, fat friend named Dan.  Yikes.

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    Guess I thought this but never posted it: If this woman's a nurse I'm Mickey Mouse.

    WP64 wrote:That's probably true, but apparently there are an upsetting number of nurses and hospital staff who are surprisingly under-trained and susceptible to weird alt-medicine and conspiracy theory shit. I don't know how nurses are trained/socialized but this is something that I have heard doctors mention every now and then.

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    Post by Nick Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:10 am

    I bought tickets for the Museum of Science & Industry a couple months ago. Got an email last night letting me know masks are mandatory for everyone entering starting today.

    That’s fine I get it and agree but give me a fucking break the stupid mayor gets her 4 day music festival in to generate all her revenue and now surging cases are a concern again.
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    Post by undo Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:20 pm

    https://mobile.twitter.com/natalie_allison/status/1425449438202548224
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    Post by Duff... Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:31 pm

    undo wrote:
    Duff... wrote:
    zappo wrote:Protester in Algonquin, IL.  Photo credit: my big, fat friend named Dan.  Yikes.

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    Guess I thought this but never posted it: If this woman's a nurse I'm Mickey Mouse.

    WP64 wrote:That's probably true, but apparently there are an upsetting number of nurses and hospital staff who are surprisingly under-trained and susceptible to weird alt-medicine and conspiracy theory shit. I don't know how nurses are trained/socialized but this is something that I have heard doctors mention every now and then.


    Been thinking a lot about these posts the last few months.

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